5 ms·

I find this generally a narrative that is easy to buy into but I wonder how many will actually make the jump. I’m unsure about salaries in Canada but I’ve heard

I find this generally a narrative that is easy to buy into but I wonder how many will actually make the jump. I’m unsure about salaries in Canada but I’ve heard some American academics talking about moving to Europe to find academic jobs there. i think the salary would kill the idea for most americans who would want to move. according to this chart: https://oira.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/297/2024/05/Faculty-Salaries-at-Research-and-AAU-Universities-2023-24_20240426.pdf https://oira.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/297/2024/05/Fa... the average assistant professor makes around 100k usd a year. the salary range in Norway which typically has some of the highest salaries in Europe for university of Oslo assistant professor would be around rank 73-75 (you are not typically eligible to be hired above 78 and in practice above 75) on this chart which is around 69-70k usd: https://www.uio.no/english/for-employees/employment/payments/salary-tables-and-rates/a-table/a-tabell-2023.pdf https://www.uio.no/english/for-employees/employment/payments... Norway has some of the highest salaries in europe outside of switzerland (although its debatable since cost of living in switzerland is so high). how many people would be willing to take a 25-30% salary reduction to move across the world? and that is the minimum salary decrease as the percentage only increases when you go to other countries where salaries are lower. Not to mention they will need to learn a new language to be a professor since they need to teach. And also the academic system is different in that most places have more hierarchy than USA whether it is implicit or explicit. So they have to learn to navigate that too. I think people will find Canada a much more attractive target destination than elsewhere for these reasons. But I also think most won’t actually move they will just discuss it. Happy to be wrong though.

derbOac 2y ago
I think it remains to be seen what happens with this, but so far I think there's been more noise than fundamental shifts. I don't mean this as a criticism — I sympathized with the essay and agree with a lot of the points it makes — I'm just saying when I've looked at things more closely and discussed things with colleagues migrations are harder than they seem for reasons on both sides of the Atlantic, Pacific, or northern border. You're right about the salaries but a bigger issue is that academics is financially in trouble everywhere, not just in the US. In some places I know of the political factors behind this trend kind of echo in a weak way some of the problems in the US, like decreased immigration, in some cases brought on by legislative decisions and whatnot. There just isn't a huge pool of money for academics anywhere. Maybe the EU, Canada, or Australia or NZ can step up to the plate, but pretty much everyone I've talked to in those areas have been in financial crises of their own. I just don't see a huge upswing in funding so far with these things. Some of the hiring initiatives that have been touted in the media, for example, in Europe, have been laser focused on areas that have been targeted by Trump, such as climate, vaccines, and sexual and gender minority researchers, and even there the funds are pretty limited. Similarly, this piece points out these Yale professors were being recruited for two years before making this decision. They cite Trump in their decision to move, which I don't doubt played a role, but I also can't help but wonder how much after the fact rationalization is going on or in similar cases whether it's more the feather that broke the camel's back. It just looks like something that had a good chance of happening anyway. I guess what I'm saying is so far what I've seen looks a lot like academic recruitment always looks, with a couple of very minor exceptions. I'm not hearing about a lot about efforts to do something that might not have otherwise happened, or to leverage "moneyball" tactics in hiring Americans.
- hedgehog 2y ago
  Housing in Toronto and Vancouver is very expensive, while pay is lower relative to the US. On a purely financial basis it would be hard for many people to move, and then of course there are many other factors. I would guess the bigger impact is how the current situation changes the less visible decisions as academics choose where to apply for positions and how they weight the options they do get. Any researcher facing a significant chance of the grant funding their research getting cut suddenly, or being detained on routine work or family travel, could rationally decide to lean towards a safer and more stable option. Compound that over the next decade and it will have a big effect that reaches far beyond academia. Edit: Just looking at big tech CEOs, Microsoft, Google, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, all are run by people who came to the US for school.
- linguae 2y ago
  “There just isn't a huge pool of money for academics anywhere. Maybe the EU, Canada, or Australia or NZ can step up to the plate, but pretty much everyone I've talked to in those areas have been in financial crises of their own.” This is congruent with what I’ve heard from my colleagues about this topic, as well as from my own research. If our worst fears are realized in America, who else is capable of absorbing all of the scholars in America who want to continue pursuing scholarly work? Even before MAGA’s freezing of NIH and NSF funds, I was already disillusioned with the funding milieu, which is one of the reasons why I am a tenure-track instructor at a community college (100% teaching and service) instead of aiming for a professorship at a university where fundraising is often vital for tenure. Industry, where I used to work as a researcher before changing careers to teaching, is not a panacea for those who want to do long-term research that is not dictated by short- and medium-term business needs. The days of places like Xerox PARC and Bell Labs ended roughly 30 years ago, and since then industry research has been increasingly focused on the short- and medium-term. Between the high-debt fiscal situations that the governments of many developing nations face and the unwillingness for industry and the wealthy these days to fund long-term research projects that are not tied to any specific gains, I don’t see the situation improving for academics soon. One way out of this is to convince millionaires and billionaires that academic pursuits are worth funding. We need more places like the Institute for Advanced Study, more grants like the MacArthur Fellowship.
trhway 2y ago
>how many people would be willing to take a 25-30% salary reduction to move across the world? the wild card variable here is the value of dollar. The actions like protectionist tariffs and isolating of the economy with resulting inflation would be significant factors weakening the currency globally and domestically. So, it isn't the situation when there are countries better than US, it is just US is on track to become much worse than it has been so far, and it may fall close to the other developed countries, and in that case other considerations may become important too.
- mnky9800n 2y ago
  That is a really good point that I didn't consider in my post. I agree with you. If the dollar tanks, it becomes easy to go find a similar salary.
Kim_Bruning 2y ago
Mind, salaries often tend to be indexed to the local cost of living. So you could have a pretty decent standard of living even if your nominal salary is a bit lower.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  Canada (in my case, specifically UBC) has piss low grad student stipends, even relative to local CoL. I was making full time minimum wage as an undergrad researcher, and my PI told me that he was still paying me more than his PhD students (2500/mo for me vs. 2000/mo). I dunno how someone could live in Vancouver on that salary without savings or additional scholarships
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Canada is an exception to this trend, unfortunately.
- refurb 2y ago
  Canada’s COL is an exception. Wages are about half of the US yet in places like Toronto the COL is super high. These profs likely negotiated a fat payday. It happens all the time - profs move from Harvard, Stanford, Yale to less prestigious schools because they’ll get something they otherwise can’t get - tenure, head of a school, more money, whatever. Considering this move would have taken months to negotiate it likely has nothing to do with politics at all.
  - ripley12 2y ago
    From the article: "Of course our American catastrophe played a role in our final decision." "My decision was entirely because of the political climate in the United States." "Both Toronto and the Munk School were and are very attractive places unto themselves... bracketing the American descent into fascism."
rhizoma 2y ago
https://www.tvo.org/video/could-americans-brain-drain-be-canadas-brain-gain https://www.tvo.org/video/could-americans-brain-drain-be-can...
DrNosferatu 2y ago
Simple: raise academic salaries in Europe and seize the opportunity to drain the brains of the US to Europe.
lemoncookiechip 2y ago
That might be true, but also consider this. These people are watching their peers, as well as their students being persecuted and in some cases removed from campus. A lower salary (if applicable) is more appealing than no salary, or in some cases being harassed by the current administration. EDIT: Salaries also do not equate to quality of living. While Canada might not be the best example with housing prices being as high as they are, they do have other benefits, such as the average American paying more for wealth care. And in the case of the EU, there's other things to consider, such as their cities vs American cities (walkable vs drivable), individuals might also be interested in experiencing foreign countries with long history, unique cultures, etc... especially considering these are academic people. There's all sorts of reasons one could take a lower salary for that occurs to me, and I'm sure many more that don't. Of course more money IS always welcome.
- WeylandYutani 2y ago
  You are right but this requires Americans to stop thinking their country is perfect. Any deep introspection and the whole facade breaks down... Anyone who does not want to worship Jesus or Trump is welcome to check out the Netherlands.
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    It is difficult not to think your country is perfect when you can't make good money anywhere else in the world...
    - lemon_zest 2y ago
      But you are just proving WeylandYutani’s point. You can make good money outside the US (ex. Switzerland, Singapore, etc) but because your preconceived notion you don’t even look at the evidence. I won’t be arguing on the definition of ‘perfect’ which is highly subjective.
    - Arainach 2y ago
      Salaries in the rest of the world look great when you realize that in Europe you're not one medical incident while unemployed from utter bankruptcy
matthewdgreen 2y ago
You act like this will be a choice. Right now it is a choice. The fear many of us have is that in the not-distant future it won't be. And by the time the music stops, there won't be any chairs left.
kerkeslager 2y ago
The salary for an academic who insists on teaching and publishing the truth may be 0 in the US in a few years given its current trajectory. How does that compare to academic jobs in Europe?

derbOac 2y ago

I think it remains to be seen what happens with this, but so far I think there's been more noise than fundamental shifts. I don't mean this as a criticism — I sympathized with the essay and agree with a lot of the points it makes — I'm just saying when I've looked at things more closely and discussed things with colleagues migrations are harder than they seem for reasons on both sides of the Atlantic, Pacific, or northern border. You're right about the salaries but a bigger issue is that academics is financially in trouble everywhere, not just in the US. In some places I know of the political factors behind this trend kind of echo in a weak way some of the problems in the US, like decreased immigration, in some cases brought on by legislative decisions and whatnot. There just isn't a huge pool of money for academics anywhere. Maybe the EU, Canada, or Australia or NZ can step up to the plate, but pretty much everyone I've talked to in those areas have been in financial crises of their own. I just don't see a huge upswing in funding so far with these things. Some of the hiring initiatives that have been touted in the media, for example, in Europe, have been laser focused on areas that have been targeted by Trump, such as climate, vaccines, and sexual and gender minority researchers, and even there the funds are pretty limited. Similarly, this piece points out these Yale professors were being recruited for two years before making this decision. They cite Trump in their decision to move, which I don't doubt played a role, but I also can't help but wonder how much after the fact rationalization is going on or in similar cases whether it's more the feather that broke the camel's back. It just looks like something that had a good chance of happening anyway. I guess what I'm saying is so far what I've seen looks a lot like academic recruitment always looks, with a couple of very minor exceptions. I'm not hearing about a lot about efforts to do something that might not have otherwise happened, or to leverage "moneyball" tactics in hiring Americans.

hedgehog 2y ago
Housing in Toronto and Vancouver is very expensive, while pay is lower relative to the US. On a purely financial basis it would be hard for many people to move, and then of course there are many other factors. I would guess the bigger impact is how the current situation changes the less visible decisions as academics choose where to apply for positions and how they weight the options they do get. Any researcher facing a significant chance of the grant funding their research getting cut suddenly, or being detained on routine work or family travel, could rationally decide to lean towards a safer and more stable option. Compound that over the next decade and it will have a big effect that reaches far beyond academia. Edit: Just looking at big tech CEOs, Microsoft, Google, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, all are run by people who came to the US for school.
linguae 2y ago
“There just isn't a huge pool of money for academics anywhere. Maybe the EU, Canada, or Australia or NZ can step up to the plate, but pretty much everyone I've talked to in those areas have been in financial crises of their own.” This is congruent with what I’ve heard from my colleagues about this topic, as well as from my own research. If our worst fears are realized in America, who else is capable of absorbing all of the scholars in America who want to continue pursuing scholarly work? Even before MAGA’s freezing of NIH and NSF funds, I was already disillusioned with the funding milieu, which is one of the reasons why I am a tenure-track instructor at a community college (100% teaching and service) instead of aiming for a professorship at a university where fundraising is often vital for tenure. Industry, where I used to work as a researcher before changing careers to teaching, is not a panacea for those who want to do long-term research that is not dictated by short- and medium-term business needs. The days of places like Xerox PARC and Bell Labs ended roughly 30 years ago, and since then industry research has been increasingly focused on the short- and medium-term. Between the high-debt fiscal situations that the governments of many developing nations face and the unwillingness for industry and the wealthy these days to fund long-term research projects that are not tied to any specific gains, I don’t see the situation improving for academics soon. One way out of this is to convince millionaires and billionaires that academic pursuits are worth funding. We need more places like the Institute for Advanced Study, more grants like the MacArthur Fellowship.

trhway 2y ago

>how many people would be willing to take a 25-30% salary reduction to move across the world? the wild card variable here is the value of dollar. The actions like protectionist tariffs and isolating of the economy with resulting inflation would be significant factors weakening the currency globally and domestically. So, it isn't the situation when there are countries better than US, it is just US is on track to become much worse than it has been so far, and it may fall close to the other developed countries, and in that case other considerations may become important too.

mnky9800n 2y ago
That is a really good point that I didn't consider in my post. I agree with you. If the dollar tanks, it becomes easy to go find a similar salary.

Kim_Bruning 2y ago

Mind, salaries often tend to be indexed to the local cost of living. So you could have a pretty decent standard of living even if your nominal salary is a bit lower.

rangestransform 2y ago
Canada (in my case, specifically UBC) has piss low grad student stipends, even relative to local CoL. I was making full time minimum wage as an undergrad researcher, and my PI told me that he was still paying me more than his PhD students (2500/mo for me vs. 2000/mo). I dunno how someone could live in Vancouver on that salary without savings or additional scholarships
mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Canada is an exception to this trend, unfortunately.
refurb 2y ago
Canada’s COL is an exception. Wages are about half of the US yet in places like Toronto the COL is super high. These profs likely negotiated a fat payday. It happens all the time - profs move from Harvard, Stanford, Yale to less prestigious schools because they’ll get something they otherwise can’t get - tenure, head of a school, more money, whatever. Considering this move would have taken months to negotiate it likely has nothing to do with politics at all.
- ripley12 2y ago
  From the article: "Of course our American catastrophe played a role in our final decision." "My decision was entirely because of the political climate in the United States." "Both Toronto and the Munk School were and are very attractive places unto themselves... bracketing the American descent into fascism."

rhizoma 2y ago

https://www.tvo.org/video/could-americans-brain-drain-be-canadas-brain-gain https://www.tvo.org/video/could-americans-brain-drain-be-can...

DrNosferatu 2y ago

Simple: raise academic salaries in Europe and seize the opportunity to drain the brains of the US to Europe.

lemoncookiechip 2y ago

That might be true, but also consider this. These people are watching their peers, as well as their students being persecuted and in some cases removed from campus. A lower salary (if applicable) is more appealing than no salary, or in some cases being harassed by the current administration. EDIT: Salaries also do not equate to quality of living. While Canada might not be the best example with housing prices being as high as they are, they do have other benefits, such as the average American paying more for wealth care. And in the case of the EU, there's other things to consider, such as their cities vs American cities (walkable vs drivable), individuals might also be interested in experiencing foreign countries with long history, unique cultures, etc... especially considering these are academic people. There's all sorts of reasons one could take a lower salary for that occurs to me, and I'm sure many more that don't. Of course more money IS always welcome.

WeylandYutani 2y ago
You are right but this requires Americans to stop thinking their country is perfect. Any deep introspection and the whole facade breaks down... Anyone who does not want to worship Jesus or Trump is welcome to check out the Netherlands.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  It is difficult not to think your country is perfect when you can't make good money anywhere else in the world...
  - lemon_zest 2y ago
    But you are just proving WeylandYutani’s point. You can make good money outside the US (ex. Switzerland, Singapore, etc) but because your preconceived notion you don’t even look at the evidence. I won’t be arguing on the definition of ‘perfect’ which is highly subjective.
  - Arainach 2y ago
    Salaries in the rest of the world look great when you realize that in Europe you're not one medical incident while unemployed from utter bankruptcy

matthewdgreen 2y ago

You act like this will be a choice. Right now it is a choice. The fear many of us have is that in the not-distant future it won't be. And by the time the music stops, there won't be any chairs left.

kerkeslager 2y ago

The salary for an academic who insists on teaching and publishing the truth may be 0 in the US in a few years given its current trajectory. How does that compare to academic jobs in Europe?