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Yes, if you cherry pick data you get different results. Prop 16 was rejected by around 57% of the voters — hardly overwhelming, but there’s a reason that you’r

Yes, if you cherry pick data you get different results. Prop 16 was rejected by around 57% of the voters — hardly overwhelming, but there’s a reason that you’re citing a 74% figure when it supports your argument, vaguely gesturing at an election result when it’s more even and outright ignoring the poll where a majority of people explicitly say they support affirmative action for racial minorities.

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rayiner 2y ago
People support the nice sounding abstract phrase until you tell them specifically what you mean by it. And I didn’t cherry pick anything. I quoted the portions of the article that said support depends on context, and then the paragraph discussing the college context and the employment context. The article itself happens to specify a percentage in text for one but not the other. Then I mentioned Prop 16 as a concrete example of a Democrat-supported policy. But you can’t compare that number to the 74% because Prop 16 was a vote by a very liberal state, while the Pew poll is nationwide.
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  Further down in the article, it also cites a poll in which over 60% of people say racial and ethnic diversity is either extremely or somewhat important. People have a lot of conflicting opinions! The idea that the data here supports any sort of “overwhelming” consensus is just straight up not true.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    That’s not a conflicting opinion. People support diversity, but oppose the principal approach to achieving diversity. Note that the questions for both admissions and employment specify diversity as the goal. For example, the options for the employment question are: > Only take a person's qualifications into account, even if it results in less diversity > Take a person's race and ethnicity into account, in addition to qualifications, in order to increase diversity People support the end of increased diversity, but oppose race conscious admissions and hiring as a means to that end. That’s entirely consistent.
    - jakelazaroff 2y ago
      Setting aside the fact that if you ask people if they support affirmative action, they generally say yes… > That’s not a conflicting opinion. People support diversity, but oppose the principal approach to achieving diversity. That is a conflict! You are describing a conflict! I don’t see how the discussion proceeds from here.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        It’s not a conflict, it’s a hierarchy of preferences. People’s specific opposition to race-conscious admissions and hiring outweighs their general support for diversity. That’s exactly what the Pew answer choice says: “Only take a person's qualifications into account, even if it results in less diversity.” Race blindness is more important than diversity. You see a similar pattern on many issues. E.g. people support balancing the federal budget. But most would say that they oppose cutting entitlement spending to balance the budget. That is, people’s specific opposition to cutting entitlement spending outweighs their general support for balancing the budget. In practice it just means that people’s preference in favor of the general issue is weakly held, while their opposition on the specific issue is strongly held.
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- tptacek 2y ago
  You knew what it meant very clearly when you repeatedly stuck up for it here, so I think you could stand to be a little more candid about the point you're trying to make.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    I’m being completely candid. I’ve always understood “affirmative action” to refer to having different hiring or admissions standards for different races: https://www.techradar.com/pro/security/nyu-website-defaced-as-hacker-leaks-info-on-a-million-students https://www.techradar.com/pro/security/nyu-website-defaced-a... (“Affirmative action is a policy designed to promote opportunities for historically marginalized groups, particularly in education and employment, by considering factors like race or gender in admissions and hiring decisions.”) But people answering polls don’t necessarily know that. Which is why you need to look at polls that are worded more specifically.

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rayiner 2y ago

People support the nice sounding abstract phrase until you tell them specifically what you mean by it. And I didn’t cherry pick anything. I quoted the portions of the article that said support depends on context, and then the paragraph discussing the college context and the employment context. The article itself happens to specify a percentage in text for one but not the other. Then I mentioned Prop 16 as a concrete example of a Democrat-supported policy. But you can’t compare that number to the 74% because Prop 16 was a vote by a very liberal state, while the Pew poll is nationwide.

jakelazaroff 2y ago
Further down in the article, it also cites a poll in which over 60% of people say racial and ethnic diversity is either extremely or somewhat important. People have a lot of conflicting opinions! The idea that the data here supports any sort of “overwhelming” consensus is just straight up not true.
- rayiner 2y ago
  That’s not a conflicting opinion. People support diversity, but oppose the principal approach to achieving diversity. Note that the questions for both admissions and employment specify diversity as the goal. For example, the options for the employment question are: > Only take a person's qualifications into account, even if it results in less diversity > Take a person's race and ethnicity into account, in addition to qualifications, in order to increase diversity People support the end of increased diversity, but oppose race conscious admissions and hiring as a means to that end. That’s entirely consistent.
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    Setting aside the fact that if you ask people if they support affirmative action, they generally say yes… > That’s not a conflicting opinion. People support diversity, but oppose the principal approach to achieving diversity. That is a conflict! You are describing a conflict! I don’t see how the discussion proceeds from here.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      It’s not a conflict, it’s a hierarchy of preferences. People’s specific opposition to race-conscious admissions and hiring outweighs their general support for diversity. That’s exactly what the Pew answer choice says: “Only take a person's qualifications into account, even if it results in less diversity.” Race blindness is more important than diversity. You see a similar pattern on many issues. E.g. people support balancing the federal budget. But most would say that they oppose cutting entitlement spending to balance the budget. That is, people’s specific opposition to cutting entitlement spending outweighs their general support for balancing the budget. In practice it just means that people’s preference in favor of the general issue is weakly held, while their opposition on the specific issue is strongly held.
      - deleted 2y ago
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tptacek 2y ago
You knew what it meant very clearly when you repeatedly stuck up for it here, so I think you could stand to be a little more candid about the point you're trying to make.
- rayiner 2y ago
  I’m being completely candid. I’ve always understood “affirmative action” to refer to having different hiring or admissions standards for different races: https://www.techradar.com/pro/security/nyu-website-defaced-as-hacker-leaks-info-on-a-million-students https://www.techradar.com/pro/security/nyu-website-defaced-a... (“Affirmative action is a policy designed to promote opportunities for historically marginalized groups, particularly in education and employment, by considering factors like race or gender in admissions and hiring decisions.”) But people answering polls don’t necessarily know that. Which is why you need to look at polls that are worded more specifically.