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I applaud the intent but the devil dwells in the details. I keep up with the latest nutritional gurus in the US and UK and even staunch advocates of abstaining

I applaud the intent but the devil dwells in the details. I keep up with the latest nutritional gurus in the US and UK and even staunch advocates of abstaining from Ultra Processed Food (UPF) self-admit to having a very hard time defining exactly what that means. In addition, there are not a wealth of studies to support the harm of UPF - its mostly, avoid till more is known and educated supposition. This frustrates attempt to be precise about what's in and what's out. Secondly, why push the deadline out to 2032. Start banning the clear junk next week. Ok, maybe it takes a while to hammer out a definition that works but start with simple rules - ratio of dietary fiber to total carbs <= 5; at least one fresh veggie and one fresh fruit per meal (fresh = not the canned in syrup stuff). CA produces a significant portion of US produce so should be somewhat easy for them. Not so much for Minnesota but baby steps.

Spooky23 2y ago
Standard USDA school breakfast fare includes French toast sticks cooked in an oven in their individually wrapped plastic pouch.
- dawnerd 2y ago
  When I was in high school ages ago we had burritos that were cooked in an oven in their plastic which would sometimes melt into the food. It’s disgusting.
  - wingworks 2y ago
    omg, really, what is happening over there. Sounds like the wild west.
  - Molitor5901 2y ago
    School cafeteria food is what is known as Institutional Foods, and it's the same mass produced, empty calorie food served to prisoners, soldiers, school childre, and other people who can't complain.
  - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
    I firmly believe that post industrial dietary changes have much broader effects than we are aware of. Some people say that the increased prevalence of trans people is due to societal acceptance, and nothing to do with pollution or pseudo-estrogens (found in plastics, and released even more with heat). Imagine the amount of BPA kids have been exposed to. Which of course we cannot do studies on, because the subject is a taboo. As if studying what's causing something, invalidates the identity of people. The hyper individualistic west, eating itself from the inside out.
    - Spooky23 2y ago
      I’d tend to agree it’s worth studying. We really don’t understand this stuff. Unfortunately the political football aspect makes that hard. The age of girls having their first periods is like 5% younger, while regular cycles are taking longer to start. I don’t have the data at my fingertips, but my understanding is that different cohorts have very different results with respect to this.
- verisimi 2y ago
  But there are no studies to confirm that 'French toast sticks cooked in an oven in their individually wrapped plastic pouch' are harmful! You can't just ban things. Think of the plastic manufacturers. And the French toast manufacturers, if they are not different companies.
  - jl6 2y ago
    The eternal battle between “you can’t ban it until you’ve proven it’s harmful” and “you can’t allow it until you’ve proven it’s beneficial”.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      ... a battle which is invoked only when one or other side is in the interests of a corporate or governance entity.
- ThisRealLife 2y ago
  [flagged]
gedy 2y ago
> Secondly, why push the deadline out to 2032 It's politicians trying to signal they "did something" without dealing with the consequences or being measured if it's actually successful or not
Symbiote 2y ago
There's a surprising amount of guidance on the UK government's website for school meal standards (follow the "standards for school food in England" link). https://www.gov.uk/school-meals-food-standards https://www.gov.uk/school-meals-food-standards Minnesota might use more green vegetables and root vegetables than California, if they're buying locally.
- Onavo 2y ago
  European food quality is almost always better than America's. The best is probably the French.
  - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
    Regarding food, it is a great stretch to call the UK European. They are famous over here for their lack of cuisine and terrible fast food habits.
    - matthewmacleod 2y ago
      Yeah, but most of that is in practice nonsense.
      - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
        How so ? I've lived in various EU countries, and spent extended periods of time in the UK. In practice I could not tolerate the food unless I paid exorbitant amounts. Both in grocery shopping, and eating out.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      I'll accept many British people (including my mother) fail to season their food, and overcook things. But, the quality of the raw food is comparable to elsewhere in Northern Europe, and low-processed foods like cheese, canned tomatoes, cream, milk and so on are European (i.e. no additives, no sweetener etc) rather than American.
Beestie 2y ago
I neglected to give a shout out to Jamie Oliver who might actually be responsible for the school food revolution in both the UK and the US https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/jamie-oliver-is-his-food-revolution-changing-americas-public-schools https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/jamie-oliver-is-his-...
- p1necone 2y ago
  His crusade against mechanically separated chicken made me lose all respect for him. It's just chicken, you're literally just making better use of the animal. It's not magically less healthy because you used a machine to get at it.
  - kome 2y ago
    eh too simple... it's a paste based on chicken, it's not JUST chicken. And the paste contains a lot of shit, honestly.
    - looofooo0 2y ago
      Yeah, but this is separated issue from the meat processing.
      - kome 2y ago
        It's not, it's an ultra-processed food, because you can't just eat mechanically separated chicken, it has to be made into a paste, a goo, to become edible.
        p1necone 2y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Paste like texture = ultra processed = bad?
        Symbiote 2y ago
throw_pm23 2y ago
Even if there were no reliable studies, the precautionary principle would suggest to limit food that is highly processed and somehow of a novel form, very different from what was consumed in the past. Anticipating a critical misreading, this does not mean that everything that was consumed in the past is automatically good.
Molitor5901 2y ago
It's really not that hard. We have to look at the ingredients. If an ingredient has been chemically altered then that is a "processed" food IMO. The easiest thing for consumers is if you can't pronounce the ingredients, or don't know what they are, don't buy it. [forgive capitals, I'm copying this from their websites] Amy's Macaroni and Cheese: ORGANIC MACARONI (ORGANIC UNBLEACHED DURUM WHEAT FLOUR, ORGANIC WHOLE DURUM WHEAT FLOUR, FILTERED WATER), ORGANIC LOWFAT MILK, WHITE CHEDDAR CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CULTURE, SALT, ENZYMES [WITHOUT ANIMAL ENZYMES OR RENNET]), BUTTER (CREAM, SALT), ORGANIC SWEET RICE FLOUR, SEA SALT, ORGANIC ANNATTO (COLOR). CONTAINS WHEAT AND MILK. Kraft Mac and Cheese: PASTA (ENRICHED WHEAT FLOUR [WHEAT FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON (FERROUS SULFATE), THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID], WHOLE WHEAT FLOUR, GLYCEROL MONOSTEARATE), CHEESE SAUCE MIX (WHEY, CORN SYRUP SOLIDS, MILK, MILKFAT, PALM OIL, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, SALT, MILK PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, MALTODEXTRIN, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF CALCIUM CARBONATE, SODIUM TRIPHOSPHATE, MEDIUM CHAIN TRIGLYCERIDES, DRIED BUTTERMILK, CITRIC ACID, SODIUM PHOSPHATE, LACTIC ACID, CALCIUM PHOSPHATE, NONFAT DRY MILK, GUAR GUM, CHEESE CULTURE, WITH PAPRIKA, TURMERIC, AND ANNATTO ADDED FOR COLOR, SILICON DIOXIDE, ENZYMES, NATURAL FLAVOR, XANTHAN GUM), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, MALTODEXTRIN, ACETYLATED MONOGLYCERIDES, SALT, MEDIUM CHAIN TRIGLYCERIDES.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  For next time, to lowercase: tr A-Z a-z And paste the text in.
ThisRealLife 2y ago
[flagged]
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
The problem with treating food in a reductionist manner is partly the reason why we have so much UPF. Just looking at the ratio between carbs and fibre will just mean that the UPF manufacturers will shove in some more sawdust to increase the fibre content. It's like with the "low-fat" foods that just have more water content to reduce the fat percentage. Ultimately, looking at isolated parts of food is limited by our knowledge of how those ingredients work together and affect our minds/bodies. It should be a lot simpler than that - limit processing to simple things like removing skin or seeds or cutting into smaller pieces. Pulverising things into a paste might be fine for making houmous, but we shouldn't be doing it so that food companies get a higher profit margin.

Spooky23 2y ago

Standard USDA school breakfast fare includes French toast sticks cooked in an oven in their individually wrapped plastic pouch.

dawnerd 2y ago
When I was in high school ages ago we had burritos that were cooked in an oven in their plastic which would sometimes melt into the food. It’s disgusting.
- wingworks 2y ago
  omg, really, what is happening over there. Sounds like the wild west.
- Molitor5901 2y ago
  School cafeteria food is what is known as Institutional Foods, and it's the same mass produced, empty calorie food served to prisoners, soldiers, school childre, and other people who can't complain.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  I firmly believe that post industrial dietary changes have much broader effects than we are aware of. Some people say that the increased prevalence of trans people is due to societal acceptance, and nothing to do with pollution or pseudo-estrogens (found in plastics, and released even more with heat). Imagine the amount of BPA kids have been exposed to. Which of course we cannot do studies on, because the subject is a taboo. As if studying what's causing something, invalidates the identity of people. The hyper individualistic west, eating itself from the inside out.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    I’d tend to agree it’s worth studying. We really don’t understand this stuff. Unfortunately the political football aspect makes that hard. The age of girls having their first periods is like 5% younger, while regular cycles are taking longer to start. I don’t have the data at my fingertips, but my understanding is that different cohorts have very different results with respect to this.
verisimi 2y ago
But there are no studies to confirm that 'French toast sticks cooked in an oven in their individually wrapped plastic pouch' are harmful! You can't just ban things. Think of the plastic manufacturers. And the French toast manufacturers, if they are not different companies.
- jl6 2y ago
  The eternal battle between “you can’t ban it until you’ve proven it’s harmful” and “you can’t allow it until you’ve proven it’s beneficial”.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    ... a battle which is invoked only when one or other side is in the interests of a corporate or governance entity.
ThisRealLife 2y ago
[flagged]

gedy 2y ago

> Secondly, why push the deadline out to 2032 It's politicians trying to signal they "did something" without dealing with the consequences or being measured if it's actually successful or not

Symbiote 2y ago

There's a surprising amount of guidance on the UK government's website for school meal standards (follow the "standards for school food in England" link). https://www.gov.uk/school-meals-food-standards https://www.gov.uk/school-meals-food-standards Minnesota might use more green vegetables and root vegetables than California, if they're buying locally.

Onavo 2y ago
European food quality is almost always better than America's. The best is probably the French.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  Regarding food, it is a great stretch to call the UK European. They are famous over here for their lack of cuisine and terrible fast food habits.
  - matthewmacleod 2y ago
    Yeah, but most of that is in practice nonsense.
    - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
      How so ? I've lived in various EU countries, and spent extended periods of time in the UK. In practice I could not tolerate the food unless I paid exorbitant amounts. Both in grocery shopping, and eating out.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    I'll accept many British people (including my mother) fail to season their food, and overcook things. But, the quality of the raw food is comparable to elsewhere in Northern Europe, and low-processed foods like cheese, canned tomatoes, cream, milk and so on are European (i.e. no additives, no sweetener etc) rather than American.

Beestie 2y ago

I neglected to give a shout out to Jamie Oliver who might actually be responsible for the school food revolution in both the UK and the US https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/jamie-oliver-is-his-food-revolution-changing-americas-public-schools https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/jamie-oliver-is-his-...

p1necone 2y ago
His crusade against mechanically separated chicken made me lose all respect for him. It's just chicken, you're literally just making better use of the animal. It's not magically less healthy because you used a machine to get at it.
- kome 2y ago
  eh too simple... it's a paste based on chicken, it's not JUST chicken. And the paste contains a lot of shit, honestly.
  - looofooo0 2y ago
    Yeah, but this is separated issue from the meat processing.
    - kome 2y ago
      It's not, it's an ultra-processed food, because you can't just eat mechanically separated chicken, it has to be made into a paste, a goo, to become edible.
      - p1necone 2y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Paste like texture = ultra processed = bad?
        Symbiote 2y ago

throw_pm23 2y ago

Even if there were no reliable studies, the precautionary principle would suggest to limit food that is highly processed and somehow of a novel form, very different from what was consumed in the past. Anticipating a critical misreading, this does not mean that everything that was consumed in the past is automatically good.

Molitor5901 2y ago

It's really not that hard. We have to look at the ingredients. If an ingredient has been chemically altered then that is a "processed" food IMO. The easiest thing for consumers is if you can't pronounce the ingredients, or don't know what they are, don't buy it. [forgive capitals, I'm copying this from their websites] Amy's Macaroni and Cheese: ORGANIC MACARONI (ORGANIC UNBLEACHED DURUM WHEAT FLOUR, ORGANIC WHOLE DURUM WHEAT FLOUR, FILTERED WATER), ORGANIC LOWFAT MILK, WHITE CHEDDAR CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CULTURE, SALT, ENZYMES [WITHOUT ANIMAL ENZYMES OR RENNET]), BUTTER (CREAM, SALT), ORGANIC SWEET RICE FLOUR, SEA SALT, ORGANIC ANNATTO (COLOR). CONTAINS WHEAT AND MILK. Kraft Mac and Cheese: PASTA (ENRICHED WHEAT FLOUR [WHEAT FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON (FERROUS SULFATE), THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID], WHOLE WHEAT FLOUR, GLYCEROL MONOSTEARATE), CHEESE SAUCE MIX (WHEY, CORN SYRUP SOLIDS, MILK, MILKFAT, PALM OIL, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, SALT, MILK PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, MALTODEXTRIN, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF CALCIUM CARBONATE, SODIUM TRIPHOSPHATE, MEDIUM CHAIN TRIGLYCERIDES, DRIED BUTTERMILK, CITRIC ACID, SODIUM PHOSPHATE, LACTIC ACID, CALCIUM PHOSPHATE, NONFAT DRY MILK, GUAR GUM, CHEESE CULTURE, WITH PAPRIKA, TURMERIC, AND ANNATTO ADDED FOR COLOR, SILICON DIOXIDE, ENZYMES, NATURAL FLAVOR, XANTHAN GUM), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, MALTODEXTRIN, ACETYLATED MONOGLYCERIDES, SALT, MEDIUM CHAIN TRIGLYCERIDES.

Symbiote 2y ago
For next time, to lowercase: tr A-Z a-z And paste the text in.

ThisRealLife 2y ago

[flagged]

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago

The problem with treating food in a reductionist manner is partly the reason why we have so much UPF. Just looking at the ratio between carbs and fibre will just mean that the UPF manufacturers will shove in some more sawdust to increase the fibre content. It's like with the "low-fat" foods that just have more water content to reduce the fat percentage. Ultimately, looking at isolated parts of food is limited by our knowledge of how those ingredients work together and affect our minds/bodies. It should be a lot simpler than that - limit processing to simple things like removing skin or seeds or cutting into smaller pieces. Pulverising things into a paste might be fine for making houmous, but we shouldn't be doing it so that food companies get a higher profit margin.