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Probably gonna get downvoted for quoting Lenin on this site -- but he nailed this 120 years ago in "What is to be done?". We are witnessing the collapse of Lib

Probably gonna get downvoted for quoting Lenin on this site -- but he nailed this 120 years ago in "What is to be done?". We are witnessing the collapse of Liberalism in real-time. Liberalism has outlived its usefulness as a tool of containing class conflict. The US ruling class has nearly consolidated absolute power and is disposing of Liberalism because it was only ever a tool used for their benefit. This is not just some Commie "zero-sum" perspective, the Silicon Valley E/ACC guys like Thiel have admitted this. Because of this, there is no liberal/reformist solution to our current crisis because Liberalism denies the existence of class struggle -- the root cause of our current crisis. It is like trying to model quantum gravity with classical mechanics. It cannot be done, you will never arrive at the truth. "Denied was the fact of growing impoverishment, the process of proletarisation, and the intensification of capitalist contradictions ... Denied was the theory of the class struggle, on the alleged grounds that it could not be applied to a strictly democratic society governed according to the will of the majority, etc."

shadowgovt 2y ago
A heliocentric model isn't necessary for solar eclipse explanation. "The moon and the sun revolve around the Earth, the moon is closer, and sometimes it is interposed between the sun and the Earth" is a story that works if the coordinate frame is Earth-centric or sun-centric. (I know this wasn't the point of this comment, but identifying the problem while missing key details that end up mattering in the long run is, arguably, where Leninism falls down as effective political philosophy, so it seemed relevant. Lenin identified the problem of class consolidation, but attempts to reconcile it just moved the class barriers around instead of breaking them).
- wormlord 2y ago
  > but attempts to reconcile it just moved the class barriers around instead of breaking them Sure and we have made many advancements in theory since then. But the issue still remains that you have to admit the root cause even exists before you can think about how to solve it. I will edit my parent comment to remove the heliocentric example.
deleted 2y ago
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TulliusCicero 2y ago
Nah, this is definitely still solvable. Specifically looking at housing for example, I believe Austin and Minneapolis have seen some good progress. Your rhetoric sounds like the doomerism I constantly heard around 2009 during the great recession, ala "THIS time capitalism's done for good! No coming back from this one!" And then after a few years things largely went back to normal and the doomers pretended they'd never made any predictions, that would require them to actually introspect, you see.
- wormlord 2y ago
  There are reformist policies that work and actions that can be taken on the local level to help alleviate some of these problems. But they are not robust long-term solutions. > a few years things largely went back to normal The US is deporting random immigrants to a concentration camp in El Salvador without due process claiming all of them are "gang members" with zero evidence. If you are unable to tie the expansion of the executive power and capture of the courts to the class conflict in the US then idk what to tell you man.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    > But they are not robust long-term solutions. Why not? Sure, they could be undone, but that's true for any law in a democracy. > The US is deporting random immigrants to a concentration camp in El Salvador without due process claiming all of them are "gang members" with zero evidence. Got some bad news for you if you think abuses of executive power like this aren't largely normal here. Yes, it sucks, but my point was that the doomers couldn't disentangle a few very bad economic years from their highly motivated belief that the whole rotten system is gonna come crashing down Any Day Now, I Swear.
    - wormlord 2y ago
      > Why not? Sure, they could be undone, but that's true for any law in a democracy. Not a democracy, and you just answered your own question. They can be undone because the people do not wield absolute power. They can be overturned by the state government, or federal government, or local lobbying groups. > Yes, it sucks, but my point was that the doomers couldn't disentangle a few very bad economic years from their highly motivated belief that the whole rotten system is gonna come crashing down Any Day Now, I Swear. I never said the whole system was going to come crashing down. I said Liberalism is over. > Got some bad news for you if you think abuses of executive power like this aren't largely normal here. I don't understand your point. You acknowledge that things are bad and also seem to acknowledge that they are getting worse, but you also claim that I am being "doomer". I am simply stating that whatever remained of the liberal framework, like: - separation of powers - due process - representative democracy - constitutional law Is going bye-bye. I don't think it is "doomerism" when it is literally happening right now and has arguably been happening since the GWOT. I think you just want to be contrarian and look at everything bad happening and feel superior because you are aloof about it.
Herring 2y ago
Hmm yeah this article rubbed me weird, like why can't rich investors just snap up any amount of new housing? Article didn't mention "affordable housing" once.
dventimi 2y ago
You'll get at least one up-vote from me. Meanwhile, "time is a flat circle" and "all of this has happened before." "Overly restrictive rules (zoning) and elaborate process (permitting and planning) create chronic shortages driving prices higher and creating an angry populace. That’s the TLDR thesis of a lot of the abundance books. This is just the same concern-trolling anti-government neoliberalism that's been "eating state capacity" since at least the 1970s.

shadowgovt 2y ago

A heliocentric model isn't necessary for solar eclipse explanation. "The moon and the sun revolve around the Earth, the moon is closer, and sometimes it is interposed between the sun and the Earth" is a story that works if the coordinate frame is Earth-centric or sun-centric. (I know this wasn't the point of this comment, but identifying the problem while missing key details that end up mattering in the long run is, arguably, where Leninism falls down as effective political philosophy, so it seemed relevant. Lenin identified the problem of class consolidation, but attempts to reconcile it just moved the class barriers around instead of breaking them).

wormlord 2y ago
> but attempts to reconcile it just moved the class barriers around instead of breaking them Sure and we have made many advancements in theory since then. But the issue still remains that you have to admit the root cause even exists before you can think about how to solve it. I will edit my parent comment to remove the heliocentric example.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

TulliusCicero 2y ago

Nah, this is definitely still solvable. Specifically looking at housing for example, I believe Austin and Minneapolis have seen some good progress. Your rhetoric sounds like the doomerism I constantly heard around 2009 during the great recession, ala "THIS time capitalism's done for good! No coming back from this one!" And then after a few years things largely went back to normal and the doomers pretended they'd never made any predictions, that would require them to actually introspect, you see.

wormlord 2y ago
There are reformist policies that work and actions that can be taken on the local level to help alleviate some of these problems. But they are not robust long-term solutions. > a few years things largely went back to normal The US is deporting random immigrants to a concentration camp in El Salvador without due process claiming all of them are "gang members" with zero evidence. If you are unable to tie the expansion of the executive power and capture of the courts to the class conflict in the US then idk what to tell you man.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  > But they are not robust long-term solutions. Why not? Sure, they could be undone, but that's true for any law in a democracy. > The US is deporting random immigrants to a concentration camp in El Salvador without due process claiming all of them are "gang members" with zero evidence. Got some bad news for you if you think abuses of executive power like this aren't largely normal here. Yes, it sucks, but my point was that the doomers couldn't disentangle a few very bad economic years from their highly motivated belief that the whole rotten system is gonna come crashing down Any Day Now, I Swear.
  - wormlord 2y ago
    > Why not? Sure, they could be undone, but that's true for any law in a democracy. Not a democracy, and you just answered your own question. They can be undone because the people do not wield absolute power. They can be overturned by the state government, or federal government, or local lobbying groups. > Yes, it sucks, but my point was that the doomers couldn't disentangle a few very bad economic years from their highly motivated belief that the whole rotten system is gonna come crashing down Any Day Now, I Swear. I never said the whole system was going to come crashing down. I said Liberalism is over. > Got some bad news for you if you think abuses of executive power like this aren't largely normal here. I don't understand your point. You acknowledge that things are bad and also seem to acknowledge that they are getting worse, but you also claim that I am being "doomer". I am simply stating that whatever remained of the liberal framework, like: - separation of powers - due process - representative democracy - constitutional law Is going bye-bye. I don't think it is "doomerism" when it is literally happening right now and has arguably been happening since the GWOT. I think you just want to be contrarian and look at everything bad happening and feel superior because you are aloof about it.

Herring 2y ago

Hmm yeah this article rubbed me weird, like why can't rich investors just snap up any amount of new housing? Article didn't mention "affordable housing" once.

dventimi 2y ago

You'll get at least one up-vote from me. Meanwhile, "time is a flat circle" and "all of this has happened before." "Overly restrictive rules (zoning) and elaborate process (permitting and planning) create chronic shortages driving prices higher and creating an angry populace. That’s the TLDR thesis of a lot of the abundance books. This is just the same concern-trolling anti-government neoliberalism that's been "eating state capacity" since at least the 1970s.