4 ms·

I would be surprised if there wasn't an overlap between HN and 4chan (same as with SA). Being run in diametrically opposed way it fills its role rather well, I

by Paul_S 14y ago

I would be surprised if there wasn't an overlap between HN and 4chan (same as with SA). Being run in diametrically opposed way it fills its role rather well, I think. There is no reputation system, no limits, no censorship, etc.. This means it produces many utterly vile posts - but all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be. I think people often don't appreciate this. It's not just people being dicks on the Internet, it's people saying what they think with no regard to social acceptance or basic politeness. And since there are no credentials, your posts are just that - some text and images conveying ideas. The only authority comes from the content. Here's to another billion.

dhimes 14y ago
I read somewhere that sociologists are fascinated by 4chan.
- crusso 14y ago
  ... and monkeys flinging poo.
jgrahamc 14y ago
"This means it produces many utterly vile posts - but all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be." I'm not sure that that really makes sense. I can be very charming or utterly vile. Are you implying that I'm only truly me when I'm vile (for example)? Aren't we all pretending all the time?
- Paul_S 14y ago
  Not all posts there are vile or inane (but many are and I don't think you dispute that). I'm just saying you get to see the full gamut (like you say people have many aspects to them), rather than just the polite, self-censored (for good reason) conversation we get on HN (this isn't a complaint about HN, I'd hate it if it was any other way). So you do get the usual hate speech, but you also get inside stories because people feel free to say things there that would probably get shut down even on a reddit AMA.
- angersock 14y ago
  EDIT: Reading over this, it came out a bit more windy than intended, but hopefully is still useful. "Aren't we all pretending all the time?" That's one of the great things about having reasonably anonymous message boards--there exists the very good opportunity to perform communication without the overhead associated with being polite, reasonable, or even civilized. On Hacker News, I expect that my posts will (for better or worse) someday come back to haunt me. Indeed, if you apply to YC, I believe one of the application questions asks for your HN username. This being the case, there are certain arguments and jokes that I have had to refrain from making. I've even had to apologize OOB every so often to people here for being hot-headed (I believe I once said some nasty things to one of the senior Apache folks...awkward). On 4chan, these "vile posts" are honest expressions of either the poster or of the facade the poster wishes to maintain--and in a completely anonymous setting, it's easier not to pose at all. An interesting research question would be to compare the normal posters to the non-anonymous "tripfags" and "namefags" (users who post under the same username and signature--terminology is as found on the chan), but I honestly have no idea how that might be done in any useful sense. The entire mindset of interacting with complete strangers, and especially knowing that you may well never share a thread with them again, is hugely liberating. You can make and laugh at jokes that otherwise would be in poor taste. You can discuss trivial things very seriously, and serious things very lightly, and be assured that you won't be tagged/branded permanently as a fool or a fetishist--consider what we've done to losethos here, and how at this point even if he started posting coherently he'd still downvoted into oblivion. "Are you implying that I'm only truly me when I'm vile (for example)?" As explained above, I imagine that the proper insinuation here is that you're only truly you (publicly) when you have no incentive to put on a ruse/pleasantries--and that if you do so anyways, that is part of the true self. My experience, for example, is that I am just as much the humble helpful hacker given debugging help and useful links on the /pr/ programming board as I am the mean-spirited hateful troll on /adv/--and on any given day, I may do the opposite. Seeing my behavior when held to no external standard has been enlightening, and proven to be a useful data point in self-discovery and self-betterment. I try to help more and troll less now. :)
smackay 14y ago
"but all of them are true expressions of people as they are" I don't think you can say that. Humans are fundamentally social creatures with behaviours that are also context driven. So to characterize the dialog on 4chan as free expression is simply inaccurate. This is just a facet of behaviour in the same way that people behave in mobs or in war-time - to cite some more extreme examples. Think of 4chan as a healthy antidote to excessive political-correctness and other wanton busybodyness.
tumult 14y ago
Sorry, voted you down on accident and can't undo it.
sofuture 14y ago
"This means it produces many utterly vile posts - but all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be." A vast majority of the vile posts are people playing a game/acting out a character/aping (along with) the community. It's willfully not-in-earnest. It's crazy that people think 4chan is 'true expression'. That's not to say that there's not truth in 4chan, it's just that it's not on the surface, it's 'another layer down'. For example, take /fit/, the fitness board. It's full of great advice and discussion... as long as you know enough to read past the obvious bad advice that's willfully posted to fuck with people.
- angersock 14y ago
  I'd disagree that it's just roleplaying and not-in-earnest. Tell me, as sociopathic as channers may be--how closely do they compare with the bankers and financial quants, politicians who drop bombs, or the data mining folks intent on converting our social media signals into ad revenue?
mhurron 14y ago
> all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be. /b/ and 4chan in general is vile because it is supposed to be vile. They are supposed to rip into everything, that's their schtick. It's a series of one-upmanship attempts all for teh lulz. It basically is just people being dicks on the internet. Every once and a while a discussion breaks out. The 'truth' about 4chan comes out in their hatred of animal cruelty, how much of a fanbase MLP found there, the beginning of the Chantology group and basically the acts of social conscience that burst from there. These things are diametrically opposed to the vileness of 4chan, yet they started there. The horribleness of 4chan is the majority pretending.

by Paul_S 14y ago

dhimes 14y ago

I read somewhere that sociologists are fascinated by 4chan.

crusso 14y ago
... and monkeys flinging poo.

jgrahamc 14y ago

"This means it produces many utterly vile posts - but all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be." I'm not sure that that really makes sense. I can be very charming or utterly vile. Are you implying that I'm only truly me when I'm vile (for example)? Aren't we all pretending all the time?

Paul_S 14y ago
Not all posts there are vile or inane (but many are and I don't think you dispute that). I'm just saying you get to see the full gamut (like you say people have many aspects to them), rather than just the polite, self-censored (for good reason) conversation we get on HN (this isn't a complaint about HN, I'd hate it if it was any other way). So you do get the usual hate speech, but you also get inside stories because people feel free to say things there that would probably get shut down even on a reddit AMA.
angersock 14y ago
EDIT: Reading over this, it came out a bit more windy than intended, but hopefully is still useful. "Aren't we all pretending all the time?" That's one of the great things about having reasonably anonymous message boards--there exists the very good opportunity to perform communication without the overhead associated with being polite, reasonable, or even civilized. On Hacker News, I expect that my posts will (for better or worse) someday come back to haunt me. Indeed, if you apply to YC, I believe one of the application questions asks for your HN username. This being the case, there are certain arguments and jokes that I have had to refrain from making. I've even had to apologize OOB every so often to people here for being hot-headed (I believe I once said some nasty things to one of the senior Apache folks...awkward). On 4chan, these "vile posts" are honest expressions of either the poster or of the facade the poster wishes to maintain--and in a completely anonymous setting, it's easier not to pose at all. An interesting research question would be to compare the normal posters to the non-anonymous "tripfags" and "namefags" (users who post under the same username and signature--terminology is as found on the chan), but I honestly have no idea how that might be done in any useful sense. The entire mindset of interacting with complete strangers, and especially knowing that you may well never share a thread with them again, is hugely liberating. You can make and laugh at jokes that otherwise would be in poor taste. You can discuss trivial things very seriously, and serious things very lightly, and be assured that you won't be tagged/branded permanently as a fool or a fetishist--consider what we've done to losethos here, and how at this point even if he started posting coherently he'd still downvoted into oblivion. "Are you implying that I'm only truly me when I'm vile (for example)?" As explained above, I imagine that the proper insinuation here is that you're only truly you (publicly) when you have no incentive to put on a ruse/pleasantries--and that if you do so anyways, that is part of the true self. My experience, for example, is that I am just as much the humble helpful hacker given debugging help and useful links on the /pr/ programming board as I am the mean-spirited hateful troll on /adv/--and on any given day, I may do the opposite. Seeing my behavior when held to no external standard has been enlightening, and proven to be a useful data point in self-discovery and self-betterment. I try to help more and troll less now. :)

smackay 14y ago

"but all of them are true expressions of people as they are" I don't think you can say that. Humans are fundamentally social creatures with behaviours that are also context driven. So to characterize the dialog on 4chan as free expression is simply inaccurate. This is just a facet of behaviour in the same way that people behave in mobs or in war-time - to cite some more extreme examples. Think of 4chan as a healthy antidote to excessive political-correctness and other wanton busybodyness.

tumult 14y ago

Sorry, voted you down on accident and can't undo it.

sofuture 14y ago

"This means it produces many utterly vile posts - but all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be." A vast majority of the vile posts are people playing a game/acting out a character/aping (along with) the community. It's willfully not-in-earnest. It's crazy that people think 4chan is 'true expression'. That's not to say that there's not truth in 4chan, it's just that it's not on the surface, it's 'another layer down'. For example, take /fit/, the fitness board. It's full of great advice and discussion... as long as you know enough to read past the obvious bad advice that's willfully posted to fuck with people.

angersock 14y ago
I'd disagree that it's just roleplaying and not-in-earnest. Tell me, as sociopathic as channers may be--how closely do they compare with the bankers and financial quants, politicians who drop bombs, or the data mining folks intent on converting our social media signals into ad revenue?

mhurron 14y ago

> all of them are true expressions of people as they are, not as they pretend to be. /b/ and 4chan in general is vile because it is supposed to be vile. They are supposed to rip into everything, that's their schtick. It's a series of one-upmanship attempts all for teh lulz. It basically is just people being dicks on the internet. Every once and a while a discussion breaks out. The 'truth' about 4chan comes out in their hatred of animal cruelty, how much of a fanbase MLP found there, the beginning of the Chantology group and basically the acts of social conscience that burst from there. These things are diametrically opposed to the vileness of 4chan, yet they started there. The horribleness of 4chan is the majority pretending.