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I question whether AI can create engaging new ideas. Isn't everything it outputs already based on existing data?

by sigmonsays 2y ago

ctoth 2y ago
Whereas this comment, seen fifteen thousand plus times on this very website, is evidence of ... your human creativity?
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  It's a tiresome argument that "An AI can't possibly create anything" To strawman it there's a kind of fetishization of creativity (are your turds creative? is everything you do special?) and there is also Roger Penrose's bogus argument that he can do math because he's a thetan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind The most articulate version is something you hear from religious types which is "you have the power to create because God created you" but if God can delegate its creative power to you why can't you delegate your creative power to something you created? "Uniqueness" is not real creativity, I mean, the Python script from uuid import uuid4 print(uuid4()) creates something the world has never seen before and will never see again and would be completely indifferent to except for the fact of its uniqueness. Practically creativity has some element of being useful or expressive within the bounds of some constraints. If I was hiring you to be a writer or I commissioned an artwork I'd have some specification of what I want. Can an AI of some kind do that? Sure. From the viewpoint of being compelling, some people are easy to satisfy. An AI might be able to satisfy them better you can because what that person needs might be squicky to you or at best tiresome and your "self" will get in the way of seduction, yet the AI can always respond the way it wants you to respond. I'm highly satisfied with the selections that are made by my YOShInOn smart RSS reader even though these are just selections and not "creations", however I'd imagine a system which you work with over a long time and that learns you preferences could "create" things that satisfy you much better than what you can find on the internet.
eightysixfour 2y ago
The amount of work done that is truly new is laughably small. A large percentage of creative output is convergent (combining two existing things) or lateral (bringing an idea from one space to another).
skyyler 2y ago
The problem of originality has been of intense debate since at least the romantic era. There are people who have argued that human creativity is nothing more than outputs based on existing data (experience).
elmerfud 2y ago
That's true but we have to ask do humans actually create engaging, new ideas? When you look at all the stories that have been created aren't they just slight variations on the same themes that have been around for, as near as we can tell, all time? When we look back at our historical writings it's the same themes at their core over and over it's just a different way to tell the story. Considering that we can look back 10,000 years in history and see the same common themes being retold it is quite likely that prior to that we were still telling the same stories. We can find different ways to tell them which can be entertaining and it can feel new but when you examine it it's not really new.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  > That's true but we have to ask do humans actually create engaging, new ideas This is a red herring, and entirely irrelevant The question of whether or not humans or AI "do" create new ideas is not relevant The question is whether or not humans or AI can create new ideas Humans quite obviously can, because humans did. Even if you see the same common themes for 10000 years, at some point those themes were created by humans. We must be capable of creating new ideas, even if we don't actually do it very much. AI may not even be capable of creating new ideas. It probably isn't in its current state, and may not ever be
  - elmerfud 2y ago
    The red herring argument you're making here is your own. You were saying because ideas are here therefore humans must have been capable of creating them. There is no evidence of that other than saying because it's here therefore it had to come from a source of your own presupposing. If you do not know where the original ideas came from or how they originated it is impossible to determine if AI is capable of doing the same thing. Even accepting the premise that humans did originate these ideas, there zero evidence that they did it spontaneously with no inputs. So with that premise in hand if AI is provided the same inputs it is likely they would produce the same outputs. Considering whatever those inputs where is completely unknown and unknowable at this point All of it is conjecture except for the fact that humans are effectively not creating net new ideas therefore there should be no expectation that AI is able to do that either.

I question whether AI can create engaging new ideas. Isn't everything it outputs already based on existing data?

ctoth 2y ago

Whereas this comment, seen fifteen thousand plus times on this very website, is evidence of ... your human creativity?

PaulHoule 2y ago
It's a tiresome argument that "An AI can't possibly create anything" To strawman it there's a kind of fetishization of creativity (are your turds creative? is everything you do special?) and there is also Roger Penrose's bogus argument that he can do math because he's a thetan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind The most articulate version is something you hear from religious types which is "you have the power to create because God created you" but if God can delegate its creative power to you why can't you delegate your creative power to something you created? "Uniqueness" is not real creativity, I mean, the Python script from uuid import uuid4 print(uuid4()) creates something the world has never seen before and will never see again and would be completely indifferent to except for the fact of its uniqueness. Practically creativity has some element of being useful or expressive within the bounds of some constraints. If I was hiring you to be a writer or I commissioned an artwork I'd have some specification of what I want. Can an AI of some kind do that? Sure. From the viewpoint of being compelling, some people are easy to satisfy. An AI might be able to satisfy them better you can because what that person needs might be squicky to you or at best tiresome and your "self" will get in the way of seduction, yet the AI can always respond the way it wants you to respond. I'm highly satisfied with the selections that are made by my YOShInOn smart RSS reader even though these are just selections and not "creations", however I'd imagine a system which you work with over a long time and that learns you preferences could "create" things that satisfy you much better than what you can find on the internet.

eightysixfour 2y ago

The amount of work done that is truly new is laughably small. A large percentage of creative output is convergent (combining two existing things) or lateral (bringing an idea from one space to another).

skyyler 2y ago

The problem of originality has been of intense debate since at least the romantic era. There are people who have argued that human creativity is nothing more than outputs based on existing data (experience).

elmerfud 2y ago

That's true but we have to ask do humans actually create engaging, new ideas? When you look at all the stories that have been created aren't they just slight variations on the same themes that have been around for, as near as we can tell, all time? When we look back at our historical writings it's the same themes at their core over and over it's just a different way to tell the story. Considering that we can look back 10,000 years in history and see the same common themes being retold it is quite likely that prior to that we were still telling the same stories. We can find different ways to tell them which can be entertaining and it can feel new but when you examine it it's not really new.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
> That's true but we have to ask do humans actually create engaging, new ideas This is a red herring, and entirely irrelevant The question of whether or not humans or AI "do" create new ideas is not relevant The question is whether or not humans or AI can create new ideas Humans quite obviously can, because humans did. Even if you see the same common themes for 10000 years, at some point those themes were created by humans. We must be capable of creating new ideas, even if we don't actually do it very much. AI may not even be capable of creating new ideas. It probably isn't in its current state, and may not ever be
- elmerfud 2y ago
  The red herring argument you're making here is your own. You were saying because ideas are here therefore humans must have been capable of creating them. There is no evidence of that other than saying because it's here therefore it had to come from a source of your own presupposing. If you do not know where the original ideas came from or how they originated it is impossible to determine if AI is capable of doing the same thing. Even accepting the premise that humans did originate these ideas, there zero evidence that they did it spontaneously with no inputs. So with that premise in hand if AI is provided the same inputs it is likely they would produce the same outputs. Considering whatever those inputs where is completely unknown and unknowable at this point All of it is conjecture except for the fact that humans are effectively not creating net new ideas therefore there should be no expectation that AI is able to do that either.