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So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if

by vilcans 14y ago

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if programmers don't know these things. It's pretty much common sense. But now we know. So, when will business people understand software development?

mindcrime 14y ago
So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? No. This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. See the link above to the "outline of marketing," for example. Just marketing is a huge discipline with a very large body of knowledge... add in distribution, support, finance, business development, sales, etc., and there's a whole world of knowledge that a lot of programmers don't generally have. Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if programmers don't know these things. It's pretty much common sense. Sure, at the 60,000 foot level. But the devil is in the details. Seriously, as popular as it is for hackers to mock "business people" and MBAs and business school, do you really think that business school doesn't exist for a reason? You think these guys just sit around and spew bullshit at each other all day, graduate, then go on to run successful, real-world businesses? Business, especially at scale, is fracking complicated. And a successful technology company can't be all about just technology OR just "the business." You really need a holistic approach (which means somebody, or multiple somebodies have to understand the big picture) where technology and the "business side" complement each other. So, when will business people understand software development? Ya know, it would almost be fair for the business people to ask "when will software developers understand software development?" We, as a group, still don't do a good job of giving good estimates and delivering things that work reliably without constant hand-holding and patching. But, to be fair, that's often back to ill-defined requirements and unreasonable schedule pressure, which still - IMO - argues for the need for a holistic understanding of what's going on - that is, a shared understanding that's common to the "business people" and the hackers. In fact, I almost wish we could get away from making the distinction "business people" and "technology people" (or "hackers") and drop the antagonistic, adversarial atmosphere that often seems to exist.
- vilcans 14y ago
  > This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for? > Ya know, it would almost be fair for the business people to ask "when will software developers understand software development?" Good point! But then again, software development is difficult. It is hard if not impossible to estimate the schedule and cost of creating something that nobody has ever done before. And perhaps that is what the business folks need to understand. The tricky thing as a developer is explaining this without sounding like you're coming up with excuses for being late.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for? Sorry, my reply was coming from the point of view of "hacker as potential entrepreneur", not "hacker as employee of $FIRM." Yeah, if you're writing code for an existing business, just doing normal "business as usual" stuff, then you wouldn't need to know as much about the details of the business. I would think you'd still be better off with some knowledge of the "business side" of things though.
    - vilcans 14y ago
      OK, then I understand your position better. This is hacker news after all. BTW, I think that there's misunderstanding between software developers and business people because software development is not as much about technology and hard facts as non-developers tend to think. It is very much about organization, people and processes. So in that way, software development is more similar to business than business people expect.

by vilcans 14y ago

mindcrime 14y ago

So this is what business people mean when they say programmers need to understand business? No. This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. See the link above to the "outline of marketing," for example. Just marketing is a huge discipline with a very large body of knowledge... add in distribution, support, finance, business development, sales, etc., and there's a whole world of knowledge that a lot of programmers don't generally have. Apart from not knowing the exact nomenclature, it's embarrassing if programmers don't know these things. It's pretty much common sense. Sure, at the 60,000 foot level. But the devil is in the details. Seriously, as popular as it is for hackers to mock "business people" and MBAs and business school, do you really think that business school doesn't exist for a reason? You think these guys just sit around and spew bullshit at each other all day, graduate, then go on to run successful, real-world businesses? Business, especially at scale, is fracking complicated. And a successful technology company can't be all about just technology OR just "the business." You really need a holistic approach (which means somebody, or multiple somebodies have to understand the big picture) where technology and the "business side" complement each other. So, when will business people understand software development? Ya know, it would almost be fair for the business people to ask "when will software developers understand software development?" We, as a group, still don't do a good job of giving good estimates and delivering things that work reliably without constant hand-holding and patching. But, to be fair, that's often back to ill-defined requirements and unreasonable schedule pressure, which still - IMO - argues for the need for a holistic understanding of what's going on - that is, a shared understanding that's common to the "business people" and the hackers. In fact, I almost wish we could get away from making the distinction "business people" and "technology people" (or "hackers") and drop the antagonistic, adversarial atmosphere that often seems to exist.

vilcans 14y ago
> This is the thinnest sliver of a fraction of what business people think hackers should know about business. This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for? > Ya know, it would almost be fair for the business people to ask "when will software developers understand software development?" Good point! But then again, software development is difficult. It is hard if not impossible to estimate the schedule and cost of creating something that nobody has ever done before. And perhaps that is what the business folks need to understand. The tricky thing as a developer is explaining this without sounding like you're coming up with excuses for being late.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  This sounds like programmers need to know a lot about business. Of course knowledge is a light burden and all that, but do really programmers need to know that much outside their area of expertise? Isn't a shallow understanding enough? Otherwise, what would you need dedicated business people for? Sorry, my reply was coming from the point of view of "hacker as potential entrepreneur", not "hacker as employee of $FIRM." Yeah, if you're writing code for an existing business, just doing normal "business as usual" stuff, then you wouldn't need to know as much about the details of the business. I would think you'd still be better off with some knowledge of the "business side" of things though.
  - vilcans 14y ago
    OK, then I understand your position better. This is hacker news after all. BTW, I think that there's misunderstanding between software developers and business people because software development is not as much about technology and hard facts as non-developers tend to think. It is very much about organization, people and processes. So in that way, software development is more similar to business than business people expect.