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The anger reading the comments here from the folks who don't like DF/Apple is practically palpable, and that's obviously the reason the articles get flagged. I

The anger reading the comments here from the folks who don't like DF/Apple is practically palpable, and that's obviously the reason the articles get flagged. I'm not sure where all that anger comes from (e.g., there isn't any company I've ever been as angry about as some of the commenters on this thread are). I suspect the response I'd get if I asked would be Apple did this or that, but personally, if I didn't like this or that I'd just buy a product from a different company and go about my day. I don't get hanging on to all that anger. (And frankly, I'd love if someone did what DF does for other platforms, I like hearing from fans of products and platforms what they see in them.)

spenrose 2y ago
I suspect it's driven by the Olde School Linux / Free Software contingent of HN commenters / voters. Here is an example[1]: "The #1 story on Hacker News at 2023:08:21T15:41Z is a 2021 discussion of Linux desktop packaging tools. Hypothesis: HN story up-voters are heavily drawn from Free / Open Source Software folks interested in issues that were broadly discussed in "tech" two decades ago (Linux for the desktop!) and are much less broadly discussed today." That anodyne observation garnered 5 downvotes. I mean, of course it was silly to treat Linux desktop packaging tools as the most important story in tech in 2023! Overall the dynamic feels like Wikipedia: people who participate are atypical, and nothing annoys them more than one's pointing out that they are atypical. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37211129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37211129
- robenkleene 2y ago
  I agree, and expressed something similar in another command on this thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43493805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43493805 that HN is trending more and more from a general site for software/hardware makers, and more towards a Linux/OSS specific site. That's a notable trend overall, but not really a problem on its own. Every community is inevitably going to lean a certain way. But it doesn't really explain the anger. To be blunt, most of the comments criticizing DF/Apple in this thread sound unhinged to me, e.g., like Apple goes around living in these folks head rent free. I have difficulty understanding that mindset with something you can so easily avoid just by buying a product from another company? E.g., there are countless companies whose values don't align with my own, so I don't use their products, and that's the end of it. Why are these folks spending so much of their energy on hating this company that they can so easily avoid? And why is it just Apple that garner's this hatred, e.g., why not Nintendo for example, a company with a similar approach overall (closed, emphasis on product experience over specs) for example.
  - owebmaster 2y ago
    > like Apple goes around living in these folks head rent free Not rent-free. 30% in the App Store. And 100% in the PWA they don't let me ask users to install.
    - robenkleene 2y ago
      Are you saying these things make you angry at Apple? I.e., I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? E.g., if I made games, I'd probably ship on Steam and not even try to ship on Nintendo, but I wouldn't hate Nintendo for that, I'd just target platforms that I'm more aligned with. I'm just having a hard time picturing hating another platform for having values different than mine when there are so many options available, why not just focus on the other options?
      - owebmaster 2y ago
        > I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? I want to make software to users of smartphones, not to Apple users. There is nothing related to values. Gatekeeping the whole apps ecosystem for their own profit isn't a value anybody should share besides the shareholders.
        robenkleene 2y ago
        What's the most sympathetic way to state your position? E.g., I'm struggling with "I'm angry because I can't make money off of iPhone users the way I want to" that just doesn't sound sympathetic to me? Does it to you? (This may just be a conflict of values again, i.e., it sounds entitled to me to want to have equal access to sell your products to all smartphone users, regardless of their choices, that sounds super invasive to me in fact.) Also be curious what you think of console makers like Nintendo who have a similar approach regarding revenue cuts and access as Apple? Specifically why is there so much hate at Apple using this model but not Nintendo?
- erickhill 2y ago
  There are also a lot of older Windows users, and users of failed platforms from the 80s and 90s, that absolutely hold deep seated anger at Apple and Steve Jobs. There were similar attitudes about Microsoft and Bill Gates in the 90s. After Gates left Microsoft a lot of that vitriol seemed to have dissipated, but some still aim it at Apple. The anger seems to usually be economically rooted, i.e. in terms of how Apple charges high prices for their hardware.

spenrose 2y ago

I suspect it's driven by the Olde School Linux / Free Software contingent of HN commenters / voters. Here is an example[1]: "The #1 story on Hacker News at 2023:08:21T15:41Z is a 2021 discussion of Linux desktop packaging tools. Hypothesis: HN story up-voters are heavily drawn from Free / Open Source Software folks interested in issues that were broadly discussed in "tech" two decades ago (Linux for the desktop!) and are much less broadly discussed today." That anodyne observation garnered 5 downvotes. I mean, of course it was silly to treat Linux desktop packaging tools as the most important story in tech in 2023! Overall the dynamic feels like Wikipedia: people who participate are atypical, and nothing annoys them more than one's pointing out that they are atypical. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37211129 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37211129

robenkleene 2y ago
I agree, and expressed something similar in another command on this thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43493805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43493805 that HN is trending more and more from a general site for software/hardware makers, and more towards a Linux/OSS specific site. That's a notable trend overall, but not really a problem on its own. Every community is inevitably going to lean a certain way. But it doesn't really explain the anger. To be blunt, most of the comments criticizing DF/Apple in this thread sound unhinged to me, e.g., like Apple goes around living in these folks head rent free. I have difficulty understanding that mindset with something you can so easily avoid just by buying a product from another company? E.g., there are countless companies whose values don't align with my own, so I don't use their products, and that's the end of it. Why are these folks spending so much of their energy on hating this company that they can so easily avoid? And why is it just Apple that garner's this hatred, e.g., why not Nintendo for example, a company with a similar approach overall (closed, emphasis on product experience over specs) for example.
- owebmaster 2y ago
  > like Apple goes around living in these folks head rent free Not rent-free. 30% in the App Store. And 100% in the PWA they don't let me ask users to install.
  - robenkleene 2y ago
    Are you saying these things make you angry at Apple? I.e., I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? E.g., if I made games, I'd probably ship on Steam and not even try to ship on Nintendo, but I wouldn't hate Nintendo for that, I'd just target platforms that I'm more aligned with. I'm just having a hard time picturing hating another platform for having values different than mine when there are so many options available, why not just focus on the other options?
    - owebmaster 2y ago
      > I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? I want to make software to users of smartphones, not to Apple users. There is nothing related to values. Gatekeeping the whole apps ecosystem for their own profit isn't a value anybody should share besides the shareholders.
      - robenkleene 2y ago
        What's the most sympathetic way to state your position? E.g., I'm struggling with "I'm angry because I can't make money off of iPhone users the way I want to" that just doesn't sound sympathetic to me? Does it to you? (This may just be a conflict of values again, i.e., it sounds entitled to me to want to have equal access to sell your products to all smartphone users, regardless of their choices, that sounds super invasive to me in fact.) Also be curious what you think of console makers like Nintendo who have a similar approach regarding revenue cuts and access as Apple? Specifically why is there so much hate at Apple using this model but not Nintendo?
erickhill 2y ago
There are also a lot of older Windows users, and users of failed platforms from the 80s and 90s, that absolutely hold deep seated anger at Apple and Steve Jobs. There were similar attitudes about Microsoft and Bill Gates in the 90s. After Gates left Microsoft a lot of that vitriol seemed to have dissipated, but some still aim it at Apple. The anger seems to usually be economically rooted, i.e. in terms of how Apple charges high prices for their hardware.