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>Let me tell you how we actually feel about it here. Can we have the opinion not from some privileged elites, but of the oppressed majority, who are literally

by Ray20 2y ago

>Let me tell you how we actually feel about it here. Can we have the opinion not from some privileged elites, but of the oppressed majority, who are literally starving to involuntarily under threat of execution finance all this support projects for this disgusting government?

varjag 2y ago
When USSR launched the world's first satellite into space, the enthusiasm was universal. Even among its peasants who at the time were paperless indentured servants.
- Ray20 2y ago
  >Even among its peasants No, it wasn't. This is Soviet propaganda, that existed only because people who expressed different opinions were killed. As far as I understand, the situation in Botswana is much better when it comes to expressing one's opinion. So I am interested in what they think about this issue.
  - varjag 2y ago
    You would not have been killed in Khrustchev times for expressing a dissatisfaction with the space programme, even though it certainly deviated from the party line. Perhaps it's worth considering that what people find inspiring does not necessarily reflect their material condition: humans are complex creatures.
    - dingnuts 2y ago
      just ten years in the gulag archipelago I guess lol, not death!
      - varjag 2y ago
        GULag system was disbanded by same Khrushchev in favor of traditional prisons.
    - Ray20 2y ago
      You are buying Soviet propaganda. Just an example of what what happening in Khrustchev times for expressing a dissatisfaction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk_massacre
      - varjag 2y ago
        I grew up in Soviet Union and have a pretty solid idea what you could and what you could not say, but thanks for trivia. A life anecdote: in mid 1980s my classmate shot the Lenin portrait in the classroom through a straw. His parents were called in and reprimanded. In 1950s they'd been in real trouble; in 1937 they would have been arrested, tortured and likely killed. In 1989 nobody would have cared.
  - StefanBatory 2y ago
    Are you interested in their opinion when you instantly dismiss one?
  - epolanski 2y ago
    I'm from the former communist block and let me tell you: you have no idea what are you talking about. Zero, none. You seem to be regurgitating stereotypes.
elric 2y ago
Can we maybe not shit on this parade? The number of non-disgusting governments world in space-capable nations currently sits at zero. It doesn't detract from this achievement, and people are right to celebrate it.
- Ray20 2y ago
  >The number of non-disgusting governments world in space-capable nations currently sits at zero. You are now trivializing institutionalized mass oppression. We're talking about a country where HALF THE POPULATION IS STARVING RIGHT NOW.
  - elric 2y ago
    I think you might be trivialising the scale on which space-capable nations are causing suffering. But that's not the point. The point is that this is neither the time nor place for party pooping.
vodou 2y ago
Botswana is a democracy with a higher democracy index (7.63) than some European countries. Even close to USA (7.85). [1] [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu
- Ray20 2y ago
  And what place they are holding on starvation index and children mortality rate?
scrappyjoe 2y ago
You have no idea what you are talking about. Until the mid 2000s, if you good good enough grades at _any_ high school in the country, the government would foot the entire bill (tuition, board, stipend) to send you to a foreign university for the entirety of your degree. The only requirement was that you returned to Botswana to work back your tuition cost. Probably hundreds of thousands (and that's a lot in a country of 2 million people) of people benefited from this program. Is it perfect? No. Do citizens have the same opportunities as an average person from an OECD country? Not even close. But you have to appreciate the incredibly low base Botswana started from, and how the government has spent the entirety of its existence ploughing resources into improving the human capital of its citizens.
- graemep 2y ago
  I had colleagues who worked in Botswana and they said it was the nicest location of any of our clients - which included London, Boston, Singapore, etc. I got landed with Nairobi which was horrible (at least in terms of my work). I think some people think all African countries are the same.
StefanBatory 2y ago
[flagged]
epolanski 2y ago
Don't you feel silly for commenting on things that you know nothing about? Botswana is one of the most developed countries in the world on many aspects like democracy, press and political freedom or gender equality.
- Ray20 2y ago
  >aspects like democracy, press and political freedom or gender equality We are literally talking about country, where half the population are starving and 10 percent of children are DYING. But yeah, girls are dying not worse than boys, so amazing gender equality, best place on the Earth. All you need to know about fascists and their statistics.
  - defrost 2y ago
    You're overstating the severity somewhat .. severe food insecurity is not starvation level food shortages, and 3.8 percent is less than 10 percent. At national level 53.29 percent of the population in Botswana was affected by moderate or severe food insecurity in 2021/22 Moderate or severe Food insecurity occurs when a person or household has limited or uncertain access to sufficient and healthy food because of financial limitations or other constraints. As a result of financial or other constraints, people may have to compromise on the quality and quantity of their diets, but they do not necessarily suffer from extreme hunger or starvation. ~ https://statsbots.org.bw/sites/default/files/publications/PREVELANCE%20OF%20FOOD%20INSECURITY%20IN%20BOTSWANA%202021-22.pdf https://statsbots.org.bw/sites/default/files/publications/PR... * Under-five Mortality Rate: 38.7 deaths per 1,000 live births. and dropping steadily from 77.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in 2000 24 years ago ~ https://data.unicef.org/country/bwa/ https://data.unicef.org/country/bwa/

by Ray20 2y ago

varjag 2y ago

When USSR launched the world's first satellite into space, the enthusiasm was universal. Even among its peasants who at the time were paperless indentured servants.

Ray20 2y ago
>Even among its peasants No, it wasn't. This is Soviet propaganda, that existed only because people who expressed different opinions were killed. As far as I understand, the situation in Botswana is much better when it comes to expressing one's opinion. So I am interested in what they think about this issue.
- varjag 2y ago
  You would not have been killed in Khrustchev times for expressing a dissatisfaction with the space programme, even though it certainly deviated from the party line. Perhaps it's worth considering that what people find inspiring does not necessarily reflect their material condition: humans are complex creatures.
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    just ten years in the gulag archipelago I guess lol, not death!
    - varjag 2y ago
      GULag system was disbanded by same Khrushchev in favor of traditional prisons.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    You are buying Soviet propaganda. Just an example of what what happening in Khrustchev times for expressing a dissatisfaction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocherkassk_massacre
    - varjag 2y ago
      I grew up in Soviet Union and have a pretty solid idea what you could and what you could not say, but thanks for trivia. A life anecdote: in mid 1980s my classmate shot the Lenin portrait in the classroom through a straw. His parents were called in and reprimanded. In 1950s they'd been in real trouble; in 1937 they would have been arrested, tortured and likely killed. In 1989 nobody would have cared.
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  Are you interested in their opinion when you instantly dismiss one?
- epolanski 2y ago
  I'm from the former communist block and let me tell you: you have no idea what are you talking about. Zero, none. You seem to be regurgitating stereotypes.

elric 2y ago

Can we maybe not shit on this parade? The number of non-disgusting governments world in space-capable nations currently sits at zero. It doesn't detract from this achievement, and people are right to celebrate it.

Ray20 2y ago
>The number of non-disgusting governments world in space-capable nations currently sits at zero. You are now trivializing institutionalized mass oppression. We're talking about a country where HALF THE POPULATION IS STARVING RIGHT NOW.
- elric 2y ago
  I think you might be trivialising the scale on which space-capable nations are causing suffering. But that's not the point. The point is that this is neither the time nor place for party pooping.

vodou 2y ago

Botswana is a democracy with a higher democracy index (7.63) than some European countries. Even close to USA (7.85). [1] [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu

Ray20 2y ago
And what place they are holding on starvation index and children mortality rate?

scrappyjoe 2y ago

You have no idea what you are talking about. Until the mid 2000s, if you good good enough grades at _any_ high school in the country, the government would foot the entire bill (tuition, board, stipend) to send you to a foreign university for the entirety of your degree. The only requirement was that you returned to Botswana to work back your tuition cost. Probably hundreds of thousands (and that's a lot in a country of 2 million people) of people benefited from this program. Is it perfect? No. Do citizens have the same opportunities as an average person from an OECD country? Not even close. But you have to appreciate the incredibly low base Botswana started from, and how the government has spent the entirety of its existence ploughing resources into improving the human capital of its citizens.

graemep 2y ago
I had colleagues who worked in Botswana and they said it was the nicest location of any of our clients - which included London, Boston, Singapore, etc. I got landed with Nairobi which was horrible (at least in terms of my work). I think some people think all African countries are the same.

StefanBatory 2y ago

[flagged]

epolanski 2y ago

Don't you feel silly for commenting on things that you know nothing about? Botswana is one of the most developed countries in the world on many aspects like democracy, press and political freedom or gender equality.

Ray20 2y ago
>aspects like democracy, press and political freedom or gender equality We are literally talking about country, where half the population are starving and 10 percent of children are DYING. But yeah, girls are dying not worse than boys, so amazing gender equality, best place on the Earth. All you need to know about fascists and their statistics.
- defrost 2y ago
  You're overstating the severity somewhat .. severe food insecurity is not starvation level food shortages, and 3.8 percent is less than 10 percent. At national level 53.29 percent of the population in Botswana was affected by moderate or severe food insecurity in 2021/22 Moderate or severe Food insecurity occurs when a person or household has limited or uncertain access to sufficient and healthy food because of financial limitations or other constraints. As a result of financial or other constraints, people may have to compromise on the quality and quantity of their diets, but they do not necessarily suffer from extreme hunger or starvation. ~ https://statsbots.org.bw/sites/default/files/publications/PREVELANCE%20OF%20FOOD%20INSECURITY%20IN%20BOTSWANA%202021-22.pdf https://statsbots.org.bw/sites/default/files/publications/PR... * Under-five Mortality Rate: 38.7 deaths per 1,000 live births. and dropping steadily from 77.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in 2000 24 years ago ~ https://data.unicef.org/country/bwa/ https://data.unicef.org/country/bwa/