4 ms·

Study casts doubt on gluten as cause of gut ailments among non-coeliacs

46 points by pseudolus 2y ago

luqtas 2y ago
celiac here (+decade old find) and it's impressive what's hapenning to certain "health oriented" demographics fueled by doctors on Instagram cherry picking studies of the size of this one and blamming the 'thousands years old staple food' as a cause of ANYTHING
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  but that thousand year old staple food, is at best 30 years old. That was when improved strains of grain were bred , which contain much different and some newish wheat protein. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386278905_Changes_in_protein_content_composition_and_dough_quality_outcomes_of_Australian_wheat_breeding_on_varieties_released_from_1860_to_2015 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386278905_Changes_i...
- watwut 2y ago
  Humanity lived with diseases related to foods or behavior for those thousands years. Celiac existed, they just did notnknew why those people feel bad prior world War (I think that is when they figured it).
  - MandieD 2y ago
    "He was of a sickly constitution."
  - theshrike79 2y ago
    IIRC kids started getting better in Dutch orphanages/hospitals when shipping was disrupted by the war and they switched to eating non-wheat alternatives. From that it took a good while before they actually figured it out, but that was the catalyst.
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
One data point: my partner has digestive problems if she eats wheat, but barley doesn't bother her.
- underseacables 2y ago
  My wife went through this for a minute. Only when she knew there was gluten did it set off an insensitivity. If she didn't know there was gluten in it, she didn't react.
- thinkingemote 2y ago
  Barley has gluten but in low levels compared to wheat. Its why barley bread doesn't rise that much.
- AndrewDucker 2y ago
  There are other things than gluten in wheat that can set off digestive problems. Have your partner take a look at https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_dietsheet_for_website.pdf https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_diet...
daotoad 2y ago
This is absolutely not surprising. Anyone who spends time in online support groups for folks with gluten sensitivities could tell you that there is a good percentage of people who think they can't handle gluten but couldn't tell you what foods have it. It's pretty regular to be asked if soy and milk contain gluten. Based on the difficulties in actually obtaining a medical diagnosis (average time spent trying is around a decade, IIRC), it's not surprising to find a lot of self diagnosis in the same community. But when people who lack basic information make self diagnoses they are likely to be wrong. They're just desperate people who aren't getting the help they need searching for a solution. It sucks that there are health influencers who will sell them on gluten as the source of their problems. But the health grifters are going to grift. Since I get terrible dermatitis when I consume wheat I certainly won't be eating it whether or not my sensitivity is specifically to gluten or wheat in specific. One of the side effects of all the grifters directing people who don't have a sensitivity to gluten is a massive increase in availability and quality of wheat/gluten free foods. While the net benefit to all the people who are being duped switching back to better, cheaper foods far outweighs my comfort, I'll be sad if they all stop buying the crappy fake bread. This will lead grocery stores to stop selling it due to lack of demand. Then producers will go bankrupt or stop selling their products. Which will mean that I can't even get that sad stuff anymore. I've been watching this part of the market evolve for two decades and we went from a tiny selection of culinary horrors, to a fair variety of reasonably okay-ish things. I'll be pretty bummed if we lose all that progress.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  Lactose and gluten intolerance often come together, so it wouldn't surprise me that people get confused on that is causing their problem. It's easier with lactose because there are plenty of products that have lactase added during production to produce lactose free milk / cheese etc. My wife is gluten and lactose intolerant. The irony is that she was pretty unsympathetic to people with food intolerances before developing her own.
- delichon 2y ago
  Public service announcement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3CC22ZwIEIM&pp=ygUTR2x1dGVuIGRpY2sgZmx5IG9mZg%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3CC22ZwIEIM&pp=ygUTR2x1dGVuIGR...
technothrasher 2y ago
"While the study progresses understanding … it does not provide evidence that non-coeliac gluten sensitivity does not exist." It is literally impossible to provide a posteriori evidence that something does not exist. All you can show is lack of evidence that it does. I'm not overly impressed with a research dietitian who doesn't understand this concept. On the topic of non-coeliacs and eating gluten free, as a non-coeliac who has a coeliac partner, it is usually just easier to make entirely gluten free meals than have to worry about cross contamination, and certainly does get me to try new grains, and other interesting new cooking ingredients.
vidro3 2y ago
Gut-directed hypnotherapy? Gtfo
beecasthurlbow 2y ago
16 participants and 20 controls is small enough that you might miss a subset of people that do have reactions to gluten. My associate has huge migraines when he eats gluten, but does not have celiac disease. Looking forward to more research here (and at least they said “casts doubt” rather than “disproven”)
exabrial 2y ago
I associate a lot of the foods that "have gluten" with being things you probably shouldn't eat a lot of, because they're highly processed. The "avoid gluten" is probably good advice, not because of the gluten, but more of you're just eating crap.
somename9 2y ago
The real problem is likely glyphosate or other pesticides which are often found in wheat products.
foddymap 2y ago
I am not celiac but have one of the celiac genes active (of 2). Eliminating gluten from my diet when i was 18 changed my life. 10 years later I was still having gastrointestinal issues until i worked with a monash university certified nutritionist to identify which FODMAPS i had difficulty digesting. Have been on fodmap diet for 5+ years and for the first time have not had any gastro issues and feel in control of being able to eat without experiencing severe distress. Gluten itself is not a fodmap however wheat and lots of grains with gluten are often in fodmaps i cant digest. I can imagine theres a sensitivity link to these fodmaps for many people who have no idea. Everyones tolerance is unique which makes it a challenging lifestyle. I wont go back to eating carelessly now. This article is unfairly painting the issue as black and white when there are so many shades inbetween. They hint at an emotional reaction to the muffins vs a physical one- There are studies that antidepressants help people with gastrointestinal issues. There is a definitely a link to anxiety and the gut. Everybody is different. Could be so many things. See a good gastro and nutritionist, keep a food journal, see a therapist or psychiatrist, try foods in other countries. Stay active. It may take a while to figure out but there is a way through these issues.
- bb88 2y ago
  First, congratulations on your success. GI trouble is a real issue most HN readers have not had to experience. I've never had it. I've only talked to people who have spent a week or two in the hospital with it. Second, I agree that we don't fully understand the gut. I do think it needs more research. There's a lot of reporting that zepbound decreases urges for alcohol and gambling, from what I understand. We also know that gut bacteria send signals through to the host system. It would be curious if we could solve gambling addictions through antibiotics or some kind of probiotic treatment. It is sort of weird to think about gambling addictions being a disorder of the gut. And if gambling issues are a disorder of the gut, what other disorders can the gut cause?
  - foddymap 2y ago
    Thanks! And had no idea about the glp-1 connection but it makes a lot of sense. Our gut bacteria pull more levers than we know!
readthenotes1 2y ago
I thought the whole gluten-free craze had been proven to be non-science over a decade ago, based on studies that did not control for sugar intake
anenefan 2y ago
I had a brief look over the study [1] a couple of times - specifically looking for what other factors of the diet they monitored. I'm more prone to skimming these days but still I could find no information other than how they tested with the additional gluten vs placebo. In other words there's no outline of the diet these participants during the time of testing. It's IMHO either, poor design or an unfortunate oversight not to include these important details in the released study. The study number being 36 in total is probably enough as an indicator whether to proceed with a wider more defined study though. Their next more involved study should definitely look through the food additive list long and hard looking for slight noise about some people experiencing a little discomfort. It would make for a more definitive study. With most people who are questioning if or that they do find at times they appear to be gluten intolerant, the type of gluten eventually arises. There are many types of gluten. When going down the rabbit hole of what might be causing their gut issue other considerations of various known trigger foods for other gut conditions. (eg FODMAP) However the idea of another food type being a co-factor of gluten sensitivity is not greatly explored. Personally, I have struggled with various trigger foods most of my life, and for a long 10 years or more being between tolerant to problematic with regular bread and various cereal consumption, I consigned that I was somewhat sensitive to gluten, though at times I had no issues with it. Long story short, I found my life long mystery gut issue that plagued me was 160b food additive, annatto. (As well as any derivatives of annatto) In a happy discovery, the eating of food with 160b in it, correlated with a prolonged response (a few days) to glutens. Obviously I found out only after cutting out and avoiding 160b as best I could. A real huh moment, and yes, sometimes not all food labels are precise enough, so I've had the opportunity to observe how it tied into my gluten sensitivity response. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ueg2.70014 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ueg2.70014 (The study )
dfawcus 2y ago
I'm not celiac, but something in wheat and barley gives me mouth ulcers. I only determined that after I got past 40, and started to experience bloating from bread consumption. In giving up bread, I then noticed that my ulcers ceased. So a bit of experimentation established that I can consume small quantities, but if I eat wheat products for more than a couple of days in a row, the ulcers come back. I later determined that barley has a similar effect due to a specific seasonal dish also triggering the ulcers. It is now generally easy enough to largely avoid both grains, and not worry about incidental consumption due to the fact that lots of products include wheat . As to which fraction of the grains is the cause, I don't really care - I just avoid the two grains.
AndrewDucker 2y ago
Doesn't surprise me. I have IBS, and it's FODMAPs[0] that set me off. Wheat contains these, and so gives me unpleasant bloating and an upset stomach. But most people who don't even know they have IBS will just be assuming that "Wheat gives me an upset stomach, so it must be gluten." [0] https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_dietsheet_for_website.pdf https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_diet...
- pants2 2y ago
  Another angle might be that gluten is likely the primary source of refined carbs for most people, which can contribute to SIBO and general Dysbiosis.
- TomMasz 2y ago
  So do I, avoiding FODMAPs helps, but stress seems to be more of a factor than food. More stress == more problems. It's harder to manage, though.
mobiuscog 2y ago
Yet no mention at all of Zonulin.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  Because not even Wikipedia can really explain what it is =)
metalman 2y ago
gave up all wheat based food, though I didnt have any direct problems or symptoms, and just am 100% healthyer, and stronger eating much more fruit and veggies, cheese, nuts, meat, fish, eggs, rice is my go to bulk never been in a gym, but live ruraly, heat with wood cut from the land, and do metal work as a primary income, pushing 60, flab is gone, six pack is back, wheat was the kicker * mention of mouth sores from wheat, I long ago discovered that commercial apples gave me canker sores, but not apples from wild trees....1 to 1 tested many times * I can taste mold in bananas that look perfect, so stopped eating any ** I can taste a tobbaco like tase in potatoes, neonictinoids??, or franken genetics??, dont care it's not yummy, so stopped that **food is very enjoyable, so I am dedicated to putting in huge effort towards achiving the best results I can *** everything I eat is made from basic ingredients, no processed anything, no additives, cheese is the most complex foid I buy, no vitamins or suppliments *** It's huge amount of work, hours every day, I know every ethnic, and odd ball indipendent grocery within a 100 mile range. **** Your bodys requirements can not be engineered, it's a never ending adaptation of your needs, both physiological and psycological, to the availibility of the foods in stock at that moment. And maybe in California, thats easy, dont know, but in Atlantic Canada, it's a full time job.
r00fus 2y ago
I used to think it was gluten, but then had issues with legumes (peanuts, beans). However, once I started taking an intense pre/pro biotic supplement, most of my issues disappeared. What remained was acid stomach, but with my latest weight loss regime, I've seriously curtailed my ingestion of sugars, and now I don't take any more omeprazole regularly.

46 points by pseudolus 2y ago

celiac here (+decade old find) and it's impressive what's hapenning to certain "health oriented" demographics fueled by doctors on Instagram cherry picking studies of the size of this one and blamming the 'thousands years old staple food' as a cause of ANYTHING

ashoeafoot 2y ago
but that thousand year old staple food, is at best 30 years old. That was when improved strains of grain were bred , which contain much different and some newish wheat protein. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386278905_Changes_in_protein_content_composition_and_dough_quality_outcomes_of_Australian_wheat_breeding_on_varieties_released_from_1860_to_2015 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386278905_Changes_i...
watwut 2y ago
Humanity lived with diseases related to foods or behavior for those thousands years. Celiac existed, they just did notnknew why those people feel bad prior world War (I think that is when they figured it).
- MandieD 2y ago
  "He was of a sickly constitution."
- theshrike79 2y ago
  IIRC kids started getting better in Dutch orphanages/hospitals when shipping was disrupted by the war and they switched to eating non-wheat alternatives. From that it took a good while before they actually figured it out, but that was the catalyst.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

One data point: my partner has digestive problems if she eats wheat, but barley doesn't bother her.

underseacables 2y ago
My wife went through this for a minute. Only when she knew there was gluten did it set off an insensitivity. If she didn't know there was gluten in it, she didn't react.
thinkingemote 2y ago
Barley has gluten but in low levels compared to wheat. Its why barley bread doesn't rise that much.
AndrewDucker 2y ago
There are other things than gluten in wheat that can set off digestive problems. Have your partner take a look at https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_dietsheet_for_website.pdf https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_diet...

daotoad 2y ago

This is absolutely not surprising. Anyone who spends time in online support groups for folks with gluten sensitivities could tell you that there is a good percentage of people who think they can't handle gluten but couldn't tell you what foods have it. It's pretty regular to be asked if soy and milk contain gluten. Based on the difficulties in actually obtaining a medical diagnosis (average time spent trying is around a decade, IIRC), it's not surprising to find a lot of self diagnosis in the same community. But when people who lack basic information make self diagnoses they are likely to be wrong. They're just desperate people who aren't getting the help they need searching for a solution. It sucks that there are health influencers who will sell them on gluten as the source of their problems. But the health grifters are going to grift. Since I get terrible dermatitis when I consume wheat I certainly won't be eating it whether or not my sensitivity is specifically to gluten or wheat in specific. One of the side effects of all the grifters directing people who don't have a sensitivity to gluten is a massive increase in availability and quality of wheat/gluten free foods. While the net benefit to all the people who are being duped switching back to better, cheaper foods far outweighs my comfort, I'll be sad if they all stop buying the crappy fake bread. This will lead grocery stores to stop selling it due to lack of demand. Then producers will go bankrupt or stop selling their products. Which will mean that I can't even get that sad stuff anymore. I've been watching this part of the market evolve for two decades and we went from a tiny selection of culinary horrors, to a fair variety of reasonably okay-ish things. I'll be pretty bummed if we lose all that progress.

jemmyw 2y ago
Lactose and gluten intolerance often come together, so it wouldn't surprise me that people get confused on that is causing their problem. It's easier with lactose because there are plenty of products that have lactase added during production to produce lactose free milk / cheese etc. My wife is gluten and lactose intolerant. The irony is that she was pretty unsympathetic to people with food intolerances before developing her own.
delichon 2y ago
Public service announcement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3CC22ZwIEIM&pp=ygUTR2x1dGVuIGRpY2sgZmx5IG9mZg%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3CC22ZwIEIM&pp=ygUTR2x1dGVuIGR...

technothrasher 2y ago

"While the study progresses understanding … it does not provide evidence that non-coeliac gluten sensitivity does not exist." It is literally impossible to provide a posteriori evidence that something does not exist. All you can show is lack of evidence that it does. I'm not overly impressed with a research dietitian who doesn't understand this concept. On the topic of non-coeliacs and eating gluten free, as a non-coeliac who has a coeliac partner, it is usually just easier to make entirely gluten free meals than have to worry about cross contamination, and certainly does get me to try new grains, and other interesting new cooking ingredients.

vidro3 2y ago

Gut-directed hypnotherapy? Gtfo

beecasthurlbow 2y ago

16 participants and 20 controls is small enough that you might miss a subset of people that do have reactions to gluten. My associate has huge migraines when he eats gluten, but does not have celiac disease. Looking forward to more research here (and at least they said “casts doubt” rather than “disproven”)

exabrial 2y ago

I associate a lot of the foods that "have gluten" with being things you probably shouldn't eat a lot of, because they're highly processed. The "avoid gluten" is probably good advice, not because of the gluten, but more of you're just eating crap.

somename9 2y ago

The real problem is likely glyphosate or other pesticides which are often found in wheat products.

foddymap 2y ago

I am not celiac but have one of the celiac genes active (of 2). Eliminating gluten from my diet when i was 18 changed my life. 10 years later I was still having gastrointestinal issues until i worked with a monash university certified nutritionist to identify which FODMAPS i had difficulty digesting. Have been on fodmap diet for 5+ years and for the first time have not had any gastro issues and feel in control of being able to eat without experiencing severe distress. Gluten itself is not a fodmap however wheat and lots of grains with gluten are often in fodmaps i cant digest. I can imagine theres a sensitivity link to these fodmaps for many people who have no idea. Everyones tolerance is unique which makes it a challenging lifestyle. I wont go back to eating carelessly now. This article is unfairly painting the issue as black and white when there are so many shades inbetween. They hint at an emotional reaction to the muffins vs a physical one- There are studies that antidepressants help people with gastrointestinal issues. There is a definitely a link to anxiety and the gut. Everybody is different. Could be so many things. See a good gastro and nutritionist, keep a food journal, see a therapist or psychiatrist, try foods in other countries. Stay active. It may take a while to figure out but there is a way through these issues.

bb88 2y ago
First, congratulations on your success. GI trouble is a real issue most HN readers have not had to experience. I've never had it. I've only talked to people who have spent a week or two in the hospital with it. Second, I agree that we don't fully understand the gut. I do think it needs more research. There's a lot of reporting that zepbound decreases urges for alcohol and gambling, from what I understand. We also know that gut bacteria send signals through to the host system. It would be curious if we could solve gambling addictions through antibiotics or some kind of probiotic treatment. It is sort of weird to think about gambling addictions being a disorder of the gut. And if gambling issues are a disorder of the gut, what other disorders can the gut cause?
- foddymap 2y ago
  Thanks! And had no idea about the glp-1 connection but it makes a lot of sense. Our gut bacteria pull more levers than we know!

readthenotes1 2y ago

I thought the whole gluten-free craze had been proven to be non-science over a decade ago, based on studies that did not control for sugar intake

anenefan 2y ago

I had a brief look over the study [1] a couple of times - specifically looking for what other factors of the diet they monitored. I'm more prone to skimming these days but still I could find no information other than how they tested with the additional gluten vs placebo. In other words there's no outline of the diet these participants during the time of testing. It's IMHO either, poor design or an unfortunate oversight not to include these important details in the released study. The study number being 36 in total is probably enough as an indicator whether to proceed with a wider more defined study though. Their next more involved study should definitely look through the food additive list long and hard looking for slight noise about some people experiencing a little discomfort. It would make for a more definitive study. With most people who are questioning if or that they do find at times they appear to be gluten intolerant, the type of gluten eventually arises. There are many types of gluten. When going down the rabbit hole of what might be causing their gut issue other considerations of various known trigger foods for other gut conditions. (eg FODMAP) However the idea of another food type being a co-factor of gluten sensitivity is not greatly explored. Personally, I have struggled with various trigger foods most of my life, and for a long 10 years or more being between tolerant to problematic with regular bread and various cereal consumption, I consigned that I was somewhat sensitive to gluten, though at times I had no issues with it. Long story short, I found my life long mystery gut issue that plagued me was 160b food additive, annatto. (As well as any derivatives of annatto) In a happy discovery, the eating of food with 160b in it, correlated with a prolonged response (a few days) to glutens. Obviously I found out only after cutting out and avoiding 160b as best I could. A real huh moment, and yes, sometimes not all food labels are precise enough, so I've had the opportunity to observe how it tied into my gluten sensitivity response. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ueg2.70014 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ueg2.70014 (The study )

dfawcus 2y ago

I'm not celiac, but something in wheat and barley gives me mouth ulcers. I only determined that after I got past 40, and started to experience bloating from bread consumption. In giving up bread, I then noticed that my ulcers ceased. So a bit of experimentation established that I can consume small quantities, but if I eat wheat products for more than a couple of days in a row, the ulcers come back. I later determined that barley has a similar effect due to a specific seasonal dish also triggering the ulcers. It is now generally easy enough to largely avoid both grains, and not worry about incidental consumption due to the fact that lots of products include wheat . As to which fraction of the grains is the cause, I don't really care - I just avoid the two grains.

AndrewDucker 2y ago

Doesn't surprise me. I have IBS, and it's FODMAPs[0] that set me off. Wheat contains these, and so gives me unpleasant bloating and an upset stomach. But most people who don't even know they have IBS will just be assuming that "Wheat gives me an upset stomach, so it must be gluten." [0] https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_dietsheet_for_website.pdf https://www.gloshospitals.nhs.uk/media/documents/FODMAP_diet...

pants2 2y ago
Another angle might be that gluten is likely the primary source of refined carbs for most people, which can contribute to SIBO and general Dysbiosis.
TomMasz 2y ago
So do I, avoiding FODMAPs helps, but stress seems to be more of a factor than food. More stress == more problems. It's harder to manage, though.

mobiuscog 2y ago

Yet no mention at all of Zonulin.

theshrike79 2y ago
Because not even Wikipedia can really explain what it is =)

metalman 2y ago

gave up all wheat based food, though I didnt have any direct problems or symptoms, and just am 100% healthyer, and stronger eating much more fruit and veggies, cheese, nuts, meat, fish, eggs, rice is my go to bulk never been in a gym, but live ruraly, heat with wood cut from the land, and do metal work as a primary income, pushing 60, flab is gone, six pack is back, wheat was the kicker * mention of mouth sores from wheat, I long ago discovered that commercial apples gave me canker sores, but not apples from wild trees....1 to 1 tested many times * I can taste mold in bananas that look perfect, so stopped eating any ** I can taste a tobbaco like tase in potatoes, neonictinoids??, or franken genetics??, dont care it's not yummy, so stopped that **food is very enjoyable, so I am dedicated to putting in huge effort towards achiving the best results I can *** everything I eat is made from basic ingredients, no processed anything, no additives, cheese is the most complex foid I buy, no vitamins or suppliments *** It's huge amount of work, hours every day, I know every ethnic, and odd ball indipendent grocery within a 100 mile range. **** Your bodys requirements can not be engineered, it's a never ending adaptation of your needs, both physiological and psycological, to the availibility of the foods in stock at that moment. And maybe in California, thats easy, dont know, but in Atlantic Canada, it's a full time job.

r00fus 2y ago

I used to think it was gluten, but then had issues with legumes (peanuts, beans). However, once I started taking an intense pre/pro biotic supplement, most of my issues disappeared. What remained was acid stomach, but with my latest weight loss regime, I've seriously curtailed my ingestion of sugars, and now I don't take any more omeprazole regularly.