4 ms·

Completely understandable. Why would I, as a Canadian who sees stories coming from the US of fellow citizens getting hoovered up into the bowels of ICE from bor

Completely understandable. Why would I, as a Canadian who sees stories coming from the US of fellow citizens getting hoovered up into the bowels of ICE from border crossings, want to go to the US when I have a choice not to?

whatshisface 2y ago
Since US citizens have no reason not to visit Canada (unless you count the return crossing), I suppose this will strengthen the already very healthy international conferences taking place there.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  The return crossing is a huge concern. I have already decided I am not comfortable taking any international trips for the foreseeable future. I do not need thugs at the border to give me a hard time because they feel empowered to do whatever they want. My non-white (but Americans born) partner is even more concerned. Sure, they have to let you back into the country, but they can make it painful.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    As an American citizen, you can refuse to have your electronics searched to reenter the US. I flew back in from Costa Rica to ATL and went through customs. Nothing has changed. I’m flying into BUF in July and taking a cab to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls and back. We will see what happens.
    - suzzer99 2y ago
      You can refuse, but does that mean 8 hours on a hard plastic chair in a waiting room?
      - vkou 2y ago
        For a regime that's brazenly breaking the law, the upper boundary to what they can do to you is unlimited. If they can put people onto an airplane and fly them to a Salvadoran gulag in the middle of recess in a court case about how they can't do that - and then laugh about it - the law is very clearly not a limit they care about. I have doubts that waving your passport or your service medals in their face will at the end of the day, prove very convincing either.
    - teknopaul 2y ago
      If you are a white US citizen you have nothing to be concerned about. Unless you have friends, family or empathy.
      - KerrAvon 2y ago
        Brown green card holders have it worst, but white, native-born US citizens are fucked too. The agent can decide you look Mexican to him; the agent can decide you're not sufficiently enthusiastic about Trump. And if there's no due process for non-citizens, there's no due process for citizens either. That congress is allowing this to happen is deeply, deeply fucked.
        A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
        Yep, without going into too much detail. My sister had a green card, is white, and clearly got a bored customs agent, because she got held in the little room with all the 'problem cases' for a couple of hours. It doesn't take much..
    - more_corn 2y ago
      While you can do that they can make your life hell. I encourage you to do it and report back for everyone here.
    - Fauntleroy 2y ago
      This presumes the government will be acting in good faith, which is increasingly unlikely day to day.
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      ICE scooped up citizens and didn’t listen to them for weeks, way before this administration one of the failings behind their unprofessionalism is that the civil case treatment doesnt afford the same protections and right to legal counsel as a criminal case is this one of those things you need a source for, or can you listen to the concerns of other people and find the source yourself
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > As an American citizen, you can refuse to have your electronics searched to reenter the US Sure. And lose your day to being held for fuck all. Like I hear you, and I absolutely have the vindictive streak that would drive me to do this under the right circumstances. But you should be prepared to be detained, harassed, all while maintaining your cool and collecting detailed mental notes for follow through with a lawsuit.
      - pclmulqdq 2y ago
        Memorize your lawyer's phone number, and make sure you can get to a phone.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Memorize your lawyer's phone number, and make sure you can get to a phone If you’re planning on pulling a stunt like this, a better plan is to have someone on the outside who will call your lawyer. Or better yet, tell your lawyer what you’re doing so they can call you.
        pclmulqdq 2y ago
        What "stunt" are you referring to? Placing a call to your lawyer so they can get you out of a bad situation?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > What "stunt" are you referring to? Refusing to be searched at the border.
      - jyounker 2y ago
        And don't forget that you will then be harassed every time you cross the boarder again. After all, you're one of those trouble makers.
        2y ago
    - whatever1 2y ago
      Unless you are naturalized in which case there might be suspicions that were illegally naturalized (for example you did not disclose all social media handles that you own in your application). Or you could be a birthright citizen in which case you can be detained just to be the test subject in the supreme court case. In summary no one is safe except Trump at this point.
    - jfim 2y ago
      Can you actually take a cab across a border? I've never tried, but I'd assume cab drivers wouldn't want to cross a border. I'm curious to see how that would work.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        Not a regular cab. There are specialty companies that you can find on sites like Viator.
        jfim 2y ago
        Gotcha, that makes sense.
decimalenough 2y ago
An understandable question, but as a Canadian flying to the US you will almost creatively complete US preclearance while still on Canadian soil, meaning you can get turned away but cannot be physically detained by ICE.
- maximilianburke 2y ago
  ICE picking up people off the street is a thing that is now happening too.
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    And they've decided that "Collateral Arrests" are acceptable.
    - morkalork 2y ago
      This really needs to be emphasized because of how absurd it is: Collateral arrests.
      - bilbo0s 2y ago
        I know this is little comfort to foreign born or immigrants, but we actually have been doing that to our own citizens forever. We just expanded the practice to border enforcement so foreign born and immigrants are now being caught up in the practice.
- kristopolous 2y ago
  "because rules" isn't valid in the context of the US right now. The faith, respect and trust of the US to follow its own rules is utterly destroyed. It's really hard to overstate that the trust level is now a hard zero and it's likely staying there for decades.
  - decimalenough 2y ago
    It's not rules, it's physics. The airport preclearance stations are on Canadian soil and don't contain US-operated jails, all the CBP can do is hand you over to Canadian police.
arcticbull 2y ago
Going through pre-clearance in Canada would put you at much lower risk of hoover-age by ICE. According to the Preclearance Act all CBP can do is detain you until they hand you over to the Canadian police - section 14(2) - ... and maybe a light strip search if the situation warrants - section 13(1). [1] [1] https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-19.32/FullText.html https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-19.32/FullText.ht... [edit] There's also pre-clearance facilities at Dublin and Shannon in Ireland, and sprinkled around the Caribbean. Abu Dhabi has one but visiting Emirati jail is not top of my to-do list.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  I'm sure that you have a point, according to written policy and law. Trump has made a point of not caring about stuff like that, so who really knows?
  - arcticbull 2y ago
    Preclearance happens on Canadian soil, it's not an embassy. They would have to literally kidnap you and take you on a commercial flight to the US. If you're worried about the US kidnapping you from foreign countries, then I strongly suggest you speak to an attorney because I suspect you have bigger things to worry about than a Florida vacation. [edit] Ah, I see, I didn't catch that you meant on arrival. I suppose that is a risk, but it does seem like you'd really have to make someone's shit list to be admitted only to then immediately be removed.
    - twothreeone 2y ago
      I think they meant CBP snatching you up at a port of entry regardless of your pre-clearance status.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        Yeah, given that they have been detaining green cards holders all bets are off.
gspencley 2y ago
I don't dismiss any of these stories. I know that some of this is happening. But I want to share an experience that I recently had as a Canadian ACCIDENTALLY crossing into the USA. I live in a border down. There are two border crossings here. I recently had something shipped to me using UPS as the courier. I did not engage the shipping. I did not pay for it. It was something that someone owed me, and they made these arrangements entirely themselves without my involvement or input. UPS nonetheless wanted to charge me around $100 for "customs brokerage fees." I told them no way and that I would self-clear. I had never self-cleared a package before, so I was in very new territory. But I was highly driven by my desire to not give UPS one penny of what I felt was a ransom demand (they were holding my property hostage unless I agreed to pay them money for services I did not solicit). In order to self-clear, you just have to take a slip of paper that UPS gives you to your local CBSA office (Canadian Border Security Agency). The offices for these places in my city are at the border crossing. I took a wrong turn, because I had no idea where I was going, only to find myself crossing over to the USA with no ability to turn around because it's one-way. I did not have my passport with me! The US border patrol officers were extremely nice. They assured me that it happens all the time. They had to pull me in and did search my vehicle but I was sitting in immigration for all of 20 minutes waiting for them to do some paperwork. As soon as they found out that I hold a valid passport, I just didn't have it on me, they gave me a visitor's visa and sent me on my way. This was a week ago. So yeah ... we hear horror stories. The news is alarming. And one single anecdotal data point does not statistics make. I just want to offer a counter example to the horror stories because the news cycle loves to get people freaked out. That's their job.
- BrenBarn 2y ago
  What you say is true. There are still enormous numbers of people entering the US without problems. What's happened is an extremely low-probability event became slightly more probable, but still very improbable. Nonetheless, it's totally understandable that it makes people not want to risk it. If you liked to hike on a certain mountain and then found that, while the risk of being struck by lightning on an average day is one in 20 million, the risk of being struck while hiking on that particular mountain is one is one in 5 million, wouldn't you consider hiking on a different mountain? There's no denying the situation has gotten significantly worse, and for many people who don't have a pressing need to come to the US, that's enough to make it not worth it to come.
swat535 2y ago
Right and putting border crossing issues aside, the CAD to USD exchange rate is a major hurdle. The conversion is costly, and for many Canadians, traveling to the United States just isn't financially feasible..

whatshisface 2y ago

Since US citizens have no reason not to visit Canada (unless you count the return crossing), I suppose this will strengthen the already very healthy international conferences taking place there.

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
The return crossing is a huge concern. I have already decided I am not comfortable taking any international trips for the foreseeable future. I do not need thugs at the border to give me a hard time because they feel empowered to do whatever they want. My non-white (but Americans born) partner is even more concerned. Sure, they have to let you back into the country, but they can make it painful.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  As an American citizen, you can refuse to have your electronics searched to reenter the US. I flew back in from Costa Rica to ATL and went through customs. Nothing has changed. I’m flying into BUF in July and taking a cab to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls and back. We will see what happens.
  - suzzer99 2y ago
    You can refuse, but does that mean 8 hours on a hard plastic chair in a waiting room?
    - vkou 2y ago
      For a regime that's brazenly breaking the law, the upper boundary to what they can do to you is unlimited. If they can put people onto an airplane and fly them to a Salvadoran gulag in the middle of recess in a court case about how they can't do that - and then laugh about it - the law is very clearly not a limit they care about. I have doubts that waving your passport or your service medals in their face will at the end of the day, prove very convincing either.
  - teknopaul 2y ago
    If you are a white US citizen you have nothing to be concerned about. Unless you have friends, family or empathy.
    - KerrAvon 2y ago
      Brown green card holders have it worst, but white, native-born US citizens are fucked too. The agent can decide you look Mexican to him; the agent can decide you're not sufficiently enthusiastic about Trump. And if there's no due process for non-citizens, there's no due process for citizens either. That congress is allowing this to happen is deeply, deeply fucked.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
        Yep, without going into too much detail. My sister had a green card, is white, and clearly got a bored customs agent, because she got held in the little room with all the 'problem cases' for a couple of hours. It doesn't take much..
  - more_corn 2y ago
    While you can do that they can make your life hell. I encourage you to do it and report back for everyone here.
  - Fauntleroy 2y ago
    This presumes the government will be acting in good faith, which is increasingly unlikely day to day.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    ICE scooped up citizens and didn’t listen to them for weeks, way before this administration one of the failings behind their unprofessionalism is that the civil case treatment doesnt afford the same protections and right to legal counsel as a criminal case is this one of those things you need a source for, or can you listen to the concerns of other people and find the source yourself
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > As an American citizen, you can refuse to have your electronics searched to reenter the US Sure. And lose your day to being held for fuck all. Like I hear you, and I absolutely have the vindictive streak that would drive me to do this under the right circumstances. But you should be prepared to be detained, harassed, all while maintaining your cool and collecting detailed mental notes for follow through with a lawsuit.
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      Memorize your lawyer's phone number, and make sure you can get to a phone.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Memorize your lawyer's phone number, and make sure you can get to a phone If you’re planning on pulling a stunt like this, a better plan is to have someone on the outside who will call your lawyer. Or better yet, tell your lawyer what you’re doing so they can call you.
        pclmulqdq 2y ago
        What "stunt" are you referring to? Placing a call to your lawyer so they can get you out of a bad situation?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > What "stunt" are you referring to? Refusing to be searched at the border.
    - jyounker 2y ago
      And don't forget that you will then be harassed every time you cross the boarder again. After all, you're one of those trouble makers.
      - 2y ago
  - whatever1 2y ago
    Unless you are naturalized in which case there might be suspicions that were illegally naturalized (for example you did not disclose all social media handles that you own in your application). Or you could be a birthright citizen in which case you can be detained just to be the test subject in the supreme court case. In summary no one is safe except Trump at this point.
  - jfim 2y ago
    Can you actually take a cab across a border? I've never tried, but I'd assume cab drivers wouldn't want to cross a border. I'm curious to see how that would work.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Not a regular cab. There are specialty companies that you can find on sites like Viator.
      - jfim 2y ago
        Gotcha, that makes sense.

decimalenough 2y ago

An understandable question, but as a Canadian flying to the US you will almost creatively complete US preclearance while still on Canadian soil, meaning you can get turned away but cannot be physically detained by ICE.

maximilianburke 2y ago
ICE picking up people off the street is a thing that is now happening too.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  And they've decided that "Collateral Arrests" are acceptable.
  - morkalork 2y ago
    This really needs to be emphasized because of how absurd it is: Collateral arrests.
    - bilbo0s 2y ago
      I know this is little comfort to foreign born or immigrants, but we actually have been doing that to our own citizens forever. We just expanded the practice to border enforcement so foreign born and immigrants are now being caught up in the practice.
kristopolous 2y ago
"because rules" isn't valid in the context of the US right now. The faith, respect and trust of the US to follow its own rules is utterly destroyed. It's really hard to overstate that the trust level is now a hard zero and it's likely staying there for decades.
- decimalenough 2y ago
  It's not rules, it's physics. The airport preclearance stations are on Canadian soil and don't contain US-operated jails, all the CBP can do is hand you over to Canadian police.

arcticbull 2y ago

Going through pre-clearance in Canada would put you at much lower risk of hoover-age by ICE. According to the Preclearance Act all CBP can do is detain you until they hand you over to the Canadian police - section 14(2) - ... and maybe a light strip search if the situation warrants - section 13(1). [1] [1] https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-19.32/FullText.html https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-19.32/FullText.ht... [edit] There's also pre-clearance facilities at Dublin and Shannon in Ireland, and sprinkled around the Caribbean. Abu Dhabi has one but visiting Emirati jail is not top of my to-do list.

SR2Z 2y ago
I'm sure that you have a point, according to written policy and law. Trump has made a point of not caring about stuff like that, so who really knows?
- arcticbull 2y ago
  Preclearance happens on Canadian soil, it's not an embassy. They would have to literally kidnap you and take you on a commercial flight to the US. If you're worried about the US kidnapping you from foreign countries, then I strongly suggest you speak to an attorney because I suspect you have bigger things to worry about than a Florida vacation. [edit] Ah, I see, I didn't catch that you meant on arrival. I suppose that is a risk, but it does seem like you'd really have to make someone's shit list to be admitted only to then immediately be removed.
  - twothreeone 2y ago
    I think they meant CBP snatching you up at a port of entry regardless of your pre-clearance status.
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      Yeah, given that they have been detaining green cards holders all bets are off.

gspencley 2y ago

I don't dismiss any of these stories. I know that some of this is happening. But I want to share an experience that I recently had as a Canadian ACCIDENTALLY crossing into the USA. I live in a border down. There are two border crossings here. I recently had something shipped to me using UPS as the courier. I did not engage the shipping. I did not pay for it. It was something that someone owed me, and they made these arrangements entirely themselves without my involvement or input. UPS nonetheless wanted to charge me around $100 for "customs brokerage fees." I told them no way and that I would self-clear. I had never self-cleared a package before, so I was in very new territory. But I was highly driven by my desire to not give UPS one penny of what I felt was a ransom demand (they were holding my property hostage unless I agreed to pay them money for services I did not solicit). In order to self-clear, you just have to take a slip of paper that UPS gives you to your local CBSA office (Canadian Border Security Agency). The offices for these places in my city are at the border crossing. I took a wrong turn, because I had no idea where I was going, only to find myself crossing over to the USA with no ability to turn around because it's one-way. I did not have my passport with me! The US border patrol officers were extremely nice. They assured me that it happens all the time. They had to pull me in and did search my vehicle but I was sitting in immigration for all of 20 minutes waiting for them to do some paperwork. As soon as they found out that I hold a valid passport, I just didn't have it on me, they gave me a visitor's visa and sent me on my way. This was a week ago. So yeah ... we hear horror stories. The news is alarming. And one single anecdotal data point does not statistics make. I just want to offer a counter example to the horror stories because the news cycle loves to get people freaked out. That's their job.

BrenBarn 2y ago
What you say is true. There are still enormous numbers of people entering the US without problems. What's happened is an extremely low-probability event became slightly more probable, but still very improbable. Nonetheless, it's totally understandable that it makes people not want to risk it. If you liked to hike on a certain mountain and then found that, while the risk of being struck by lightning on an average day is one in 20 million, the risk of being struck while hiking on that particular mountain is one is one in 5 million, wouldn't you consider hiking on a different mountain? There's no denying the situation has gotten significantly worse, and for many people who don't have a pressing need to come to the US, that's enough to make it not worth it to come.

swat535 2y ago

Right and putting border crossing issues aside, the CAD to USD exchange rate is a major hurdle. The conversion is costly, and for many Canadians, traveling to the United States just isn't financially feasible..