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You're telling me that you believe the richest country in the history of the world, with some of the highest levels of mechanization and industrialization in th

You're telling me that you believe the richest country in the history of the world, with some of the highest levels of mechanization and industrialization in the history of the world, with some of the most efficient agricultural production in the history of the world, cannot afford to grow food without essentially slave labor?

fzeroracer 2y ago
Yes, that's an objective fact. Something like 40-50% of farmworkers are undocumented, even more if you consider immigrants as part of the pile.
- LetMePostMore 2y ago
  It's a fact(I guess?) that they are that percentage of farmworkers. It's not a fact that without them that farms would not survive in America.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Sure it is. We've tried it: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/wh... We already can't find enough labor: https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-labor-guestworkers/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-labor-guestworke... and unemployment is historically very low.
    - LetMePostMore 2y ago
      Maybe we can't find enough labor because 50% of the workers are working illegally, voluntarily and involuntarily accept illegal working standards, and are suppressing wages far below what they should naturally be. Is your argument that if we kicked every illegal immigrant out of America tomorrow, that Americans would just choose to starve instead of paying slightly more for food, and farmers would just let food rot on the vine instead of harvesting it?
      - fzeroracer 2y ago
        Did you at least read the article that they shared? It answers all of your questions.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Is your argument that if we kicked every illegal immigrant out of America tomorrow, that Americans would just choose to starve instead of paying slightly more for food, and farmers would just let food rot on the vine instead of harvesting it? Oh, they wouldn't choose. They'd just have that as the inevitable consequence. Famines happen; just wishing them away isn't really a great approach. It doesn't help that these decisions take months/years to show their impacts.
        LetMePostMore 2y ago
        How many famines have happened because ample food was readily available, but farmers didn't want to pay a slightly elevated wage to workers to pick the food? In this scenario, some farmer is going to choose to pay $20/hr for farm workers, and rake in insane profits if there really is a famine. In fact, almost all farms would choose to pay more to collect their food and sell it at a large premium in the case of a food shortage.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > some farmer is going to choose to pay $20/hr for farm workers And hope that in six months, the trade war hasn't been settled? They won't be paid until the crop matures, and there's a lot of labor before that point. You're also competing with other countries, from whom we already import agricultural goods at reasonable prices. Again, decisions that lead to famine don't do so instantly.
        LetMePostMore 2y ago
        Literally what futures contracts were invented for.
ceejayoz 2y ago
That's... established fact. https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor > In 1990, the average real farm wage for nonsupervisory crop and livestock workers was just over half the average real wage in the nonfarm economy for private-sector nonsupervisory occupations ($11.71 versus $23.19, in 2023 dollars). By 2023, the farm wage ($17.55) was equal to 61 percent of the nonfarm wage ($28.93). In other words, the gap between farm and nonfarm wages is slowly shrinking, but still substantial. > The share of hired crop farmworkers who were not legally authorized to work in the United States grew from roughly 14 percent in 1989–91 to almost 55 percent in 1999–2001; in recent years it has declined to about 40 percent. In 2020–22, 32 percent of crop farmworkers were U.S. born, 7 percent were immigrants who had obtained U.S. citizenship, 19 percent were other authorized immigrants (primarily permanent residents or green-card holders), and the remaining 42 percent held no work authorization.

fzeroracer 2y ago

Yes, that's an objective fact. Something like 40-50% of farmworkers are undocumented, even more if you consider immigrants as part of the pile.

LetMePostMore 2y ago
It's a fact(I guess?) that they are that percentage of farmworkers. It's not a fact that without them that farms would not survive in America.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Sure it is. We've tried it: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/wh... We already can't find enough labor: https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-labor-guestworkers/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farm-labor-guestworke... and unemployment is historically very low.
  - LetMePostMore 2y ago
    Maybe we can't find enough labor because 50% of the workers are working illegally, voluntarily and involuntarily accept illegal working standards, and are suppressing wages far below what they should naturally be. Is your argument that if we kicked every illegal immigrant out of America tomorrow, that Americans would just choose to starve instead of paying slightly more for food, and farmers would just let food rot on the vine instead of harvesting it?
    - fzeroracer 2y ago
      Did you at least read the article that they shared? It answers all of your questions.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > Is your argument that if we kicked every illegal immigrant out of America tomorrow, that Americans would just choose to starve instead of paying slightly more for food, and farmers would just let food rot on the vine instead of harvesting it? Oh, they wouldn't choose. They'd just have that as the inevitable consequence. Famines happen; just wishing them away isn't really a great approach. It doesn't help that these decisions take months/years to show their impacts.
      - LetMePostMore 2y ago
        How many famines have happened because ample food was readily available, but farmers didn't want to pay a slightly elevated wage to workers to pick the food? In this scenario, some farmer is going to choose to pay $20/hr for farm workers, and rake in insane profits if there really is a famine. In fact, almost all farms would choose to pay more to collect their food and sell it at a large premium in the case of a food shortage.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > some farmer is going to choose to pay $20/hr for farm workers And hope that in six months, the trade war hasn't been settled? They won't be paid until the crop matures, and there's a lot of labor before that point. You're also competing with other countries, from whom we already import agricultural goods at reasonable prices. Again, decisions that lead to famine don't do so instantly.
        LetMePostMore 2y ago
        Literally what futures contracts were invented for.

ceejayoz 2y ago

That's... established fact. https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor > In 1990, the average real farm wage for nonsupervisory crop and livestock workers was just over half the average real wage in the nonfarm economy for private-sector nonsupervisory occupations ($11.71 versus $23.19, in 2023 dollars). By 2023, the farm wage ($17.55) was equal to 61 percent of the nonfarm wage ($28.93). In other words, the gap between farm and nonfarm wages is slowly shrinking, but still substantial. > The share of hired crop farmworkers who were not legally authorized to work in the United States grew from roughly 14 percent in 1989–91 to almost 55 percent in 1999–2001; in recent years it has declined to about 40 percent. In 2020–22, 32 percent of crop farmworkers were U.S. born, 7 percent were immigrants who had obtained U.S. citizenship, 19 percent were other authorized immigrants (primarily permanent residents or green-card holders), and the remaining 42 percent held no work authorization.