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Yeah, but the calculator analogy is apt. In the past, anyone who went to grade school could answer 6 * 7 off the top of their head, and do basic mental math. We

Yeah, but the calculator analogy is apt. In the past, anyone who went to grade school could answer 6 * 7 off the top of their head, and do basic mental math. We've pretty much lost that. With that said, I do worry that losing the ability to craft sentences (or code) is more problematic than losing the ability to do mental math.

belter 2y ago
Would love to see eighth grade students of today, try this test from 1912...I sense disaster.... https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/13jhckh/8th_grade_exam_from_1912/#lightbox https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/13jhckh/...
- fwip 2y ago
  Why? I'm pretty sure my public school education prepared me for all of these questions by 8th grade, excepting some notation that we no longer use and some specific history questions that are now less relevant.
- BeetleB 2y ago
  These would have been quite doable by my 8th grade education. But I am older than many. :-)
bluefirebrand 2y ago
Losing the ability to do mental math is probably not actually a big deal Losing the ability to do calculations by hand on a piece of paper with a pencil probably actually is a big deal When I went to school we still had to do a lot of calculations by hand on paper. Thus, if I use a calculator to get an answer, I'm capable of reproducing the answer by hand if necessary With math, at least when I was learning it, we seemed to understand that the calculator is a useful tool that doesn't replace the need to develop underlying skills I'm seeing the exact opposite behavior and mentality from the AI crowd. "You don't need to learn how to do that correctly anymore, you can just have the AI do it" "Vibe Coding", literally the attitude that you don't need to understand your code anymore. You just have the AI generate it and go off vibes to decide if it's right or not Yeah, I don't know how my car engine works. But I trust that the people who engineered it do, and the mechanics that fix it when it breaks do. There's no room for "Vibe Bridge Building" in reality Anyone advocating for "Vibe coding" is an admission that it doesn't actually matter if the thing they build works or not Unfortunately that seems to be a growing portion of software
- throwway120385 2y ago
  Not to mention the absolute pile of "mathematics problems" that can't be solved except by pushing symbols around a page, which a calculator is absolutely useless at. So sure I can have a calculator "calculate" an approximation for 4/3 but it can't help me manipulate the symbols around the improper fraction that i need to manipulate to calculate the radius given the surface area of a sphere. And it's of zero help in understanding the relevance of that "pattern" to whatever phenomenon I'm using the mathematics to reason about. That all requires human intelligence. There are a lot of calculators and other tools that can push the symbols around and many that can even apply some special high-level mathematical rules to the symbols. But whether or not those rules are relevant to the task at hand is entirely a matter for a human to decide.
- turnsout 2y ago
  My feeling is… just give it 6-12 months. All the low-quality apps that were "vibe-coded" will start to break down, have massive security breaches, or generally fall apart as new features are added. Brace yourself for a wave of think pieces a year from now, all wringing their hands about the death of vibe coding, and the return of artisanal handmade software.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    I have a similar feeling, but there's also a little voice in the back of my head trying to convince me that I'm just trying to cope with the fact I'm going to be made obsolete by a software industry that actually doesn't care if software breaks down and has massive security breaches as long as the AI furnace keeps getting coal
    - rqtwteye 2y ago
      I think both are true. The vibe-coders will run into massive problems. But AI will also improve a lot and probably be better than humans at some point.
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  “ Losing the ability to do mental math is probably not actually a big deal” I think it’s a huge deal. I see a lot of people do some financing stuff and they have no idea what a 20% interest rate really means. So they just go ahead and do it because taking out a calculator is too tedious. I find it pretty crazy how many can’t figure how much a 20% or even 10% is. A lot of financial offerings take advantage of the fact that people can’t do even basic math.
turnsout 2y ago
PS, if you're downvoting this, can you explain why?
BeetleB 2y ago
> We've pretty much lost that. In the US :-) And those skills are entirely context dependent. You're likely saying this from a SW engineer's point of view. Whereas I've worked in teams with physicists and electrical engineers. When you're in a meeting, and there is a technical discussion, and everyone can calculate in their head the effects after integrating a well known function and how that will impact the physical system, while you have to pull out a calculator/computer, you'll be totally lost. You can argue that you could be as productive as the others if you were given the time (e.g. doing this on your own at your own cubicle), but no one will give you that time in meetings.
wiseowise 2y ago
> In the past, anyone who went to grade school could answer 6 * 7 off the top of their head, and do basic mental math. We've pretty much lost that. Source?
- turnsout 2y ago
  Observing people around me
askonomm 2y ago
Must be a place with a pretty bad education system if people can't answer 6 * 7 off the top of their head.

belter 2y ago

Would love to see eighth grade students of today, try this test from 1912...I sense disaster.... https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/13jhckh/8th_grade_exam_from_1912/#lightbox https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/13jhckh/...

fwip 2y ago
Why? I'm pretty sure my public school education prepared me for all of these questions by 8th grade, excepting some notation that we no longer use and some specific history questions that are now less relevant.
BeetleB 2y ago
These would have been quite doable by my 8th grade education. But I am older than many. :-)

bluefirebrand 2y ago

Losing the ability to do mental math is probably not actually a big deal Losing the ability to do calculations by hand on a piece of paper with a pencil probably actually is a big deal When I went to school we still had to do a lot of calculations by hand on paper. Thus, if I use a calculator to get an answer, I'm capable of reproducing the answer by hand if necessary With math, at least when I was learning it, we seemed to understand that the calculator is a useful tool that doesn't replace the need to develop underlying skills I'm seeing the exact opposite behavior and mentality from the AI crowd. "You don't need to learn how to do that correctly anymore, you can just have the AI do it" "Vibe Coding", literally the attitude that you don't need to understand your code anymore. You just have the AI generate it and go off vibes to decide if it's right or not Yeah, I don't know how my car engine works. But I trust that the people who engineered it do, and the mechanics that fix it when it breaks do. There's no room for "Vibe Bridge Building" in reality Anyone advocating for "Vibe coding" is an admission that it doesn't actually matter if the thing they build works or not Unfortunately that seems to be a growing portion of software

throwway120385 2y ago
Not to mention the absolute pile of "mathematics problems" that can't be solved except by pushing symbols around a page, which a calculator is absolutely useless at. So sure I can have a calculator "calculate" an approximation for 4/3 but it can't help me manipulate the symbols around the improper fraction that i need to manipulate to calculate the radius given the surface area of a sphere. And it's of zero help in understanding the relevance of that "pattern" to whatever phenomenon I'm using the mathematics to reason about. That all requires human intelligence. There are a lot of calculators and other tools that can push the symbols around and many that can even apply some special high-level mathematical rules to the symbols. But whether or not those rules are relevant to the task at hand is entirely a matter for a human to decide.
turnsout 2y ago
My feeling is… just give it 6-12 months. All the low-quality apps that were "vibe-coded" will start to break down, have massive security breaches, or generally fall apart as new features are added. Brace yourself for a wave of think pieces a year from now, all wringing their hands about the death of vibe coding, and the return of artisanal handmade software.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  I have a similar feeling, but there's also a little voice in the back of my head trying to convince me that I'm just trying to cope with the fact I'm going to be made obsolete by a software industry that actually doesn't care if software breaks down and has massive security breaches as long as the AI furnace keeps getting coal
  - rqtwteye 2y ago
    I think both are true. The vibe-coders will run into massive problems. But AI will also improve a lot and probably be better than humans at some point.
rqtwteye 2y ago
“ Losing the ability to do mental math is probably not actually a big deal” I think it’s a huge deal. I see a lot of people do some financing stuff and they have no idea what a 20% interest rate really means. So they just go ahead and do it because taking out a calculator is too tedious. I find it pretty crazy how many can’t figure how much a 20% or even 10% is. A lot of financial offerings take advantage of the fact that people can’t do even basic math.

turnsout 2y ago

PS, if you're downvoting this, can you explain why?

BeetleB 2y ago

> We've pretty much lost that. In the US :-) And those skills are entirely context dependent. You're likely saying this from a SW engineer's point of view. Whereas I've worked in teams with physicists and electrical engineers. When you're in a meeting, and there is a technical discussion, and everyone can calculate in their head the effects after integrating a well known function and how that will impact the physical system, while you have to pull out a calculator/computer, you'll be totally lost. You can argue that you could be as productive as the others if you were given the time (e.g. doing this on your own at your own cubicle), but no one will give you that time in meetings.

wiseowise 2y ago

> In the past, anyone who went to grade school could answer 6 * 7 off the top of their head, and do basic mental math. We've pretty much lost that. Source?

turnsout 2y ago
Observing people around me

askonomm 2y ago

Must be a place with a pretty bad education system if people can't answer 6 * 7 off the top of their head.