3 ms·

I read it and it seemed alright to me. A bit firm yes, but damn are there times when I wish people would have communicate with me with this level of honesty abo

by jchw 2y ago

I read it and it seemed alright to me. A bit firm yes, but damn are there times when I wish people would have communicate with me with this level of honesty about how they're feeling regarding something. In some places, people have communicated with me with that level of honesty. It does require you to make sure you're not taking things personally when they're not meant to be, but it's a lot better than people trading subtle cues all the time, which seems to just lead to more explosive issues later on when things inevitably hit a breaking point. Where do you really feel this message goes too far?

maccard 2y ago
Right at the end > So next time you want to write an email to complain about rust support: take a look in the mirror. > Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?
- Teever 2y ago
  How would you rewrite that to communicate that idea? Or would you just not communicate that idea? Why / Why not?
  - maccard 2y ago
    I think there’s any number of ways to reword that without using passive aggressive remarks and accusing other people of venting when you’ve been driven to venting in response. Something as simple as “keep your venting off the mailing lists in future” is short to the point and gets the same message across without resorting to personal insults.
- inetknght 2y ago
  So your problem with the email is that you don't like it when a leadership guy tells people to look at themselves before they cry. Well, I'm glad you're not my lead. I want people to tell me when I'm doing something wrong. It's how I learn and grow.
  - dayjah 2y ago
    Both can be true at once, right? Some folks need more carrot, some need more stick. I don’t know the actors in this play, but I assume Linus (who presumably does have a mental map for these actors) is choosing to strike a tone which gets the message across without causing lasting damage. Perhaps GP carries with them Linus’ priors resulting in a different reading of this specific message.
  - maccard 2y ago
    You can provide direct actionable feedback without being passive aggressive and insulting people. Edit: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 here’s a really good example of Linus not taking any shit and doing so professionally
  - mosburger 2y ago
    Good coaches and managers adjust their style to the person they're coaching. I learned that from Bill Belichick. XD
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      what kind of person requires the style of cheating? or sleeveless hoodies?
- jchw 2y ago
  Could certainly be less confrontational, but in this case, it doesn't really feel so unwarranted, in large part because coming from Linus regarding the Rust for Linux project, a stronger expression of frustration feels justifiable. It's a lot different than the real-life "toxic" communication I've witnessed, where the harshness is strictly one-sided and feels unjustifiable. But I guess the line will be up to taste. I've been on the receiving end of harsher communication that I don't feel was completely uncalled for, too. I certainly can be a stubborn person and sometimes reasonable communication just isn't getting the message across. On the other hand, there are people who basically never do anything to warrant being communicated to like this. It would be ideal if everyone could communicate calmly and always get the message across, but frankly it just doesn't seem to work that way.
  - maccard 2y ago
    I disagree - the harshness here is personal insults and passive-aggressiveness. That's uncalled for and definitely "toxic". It's very possible to be assertive and shut down unconstructive discussions, as Linus has repeatedly shown. Here [0] is a great example of Linus being firm, assertive, calling someone out on their shit. [0] https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066
    - jchw 2y ago
      I really regret the proliferation of terms like "toxic" to describe things as benign as this. I think it's literally recoloring people's perception of what bad communication actually looks like.
      - maccard 2y ago
        You brought the word up, not me. The tiles are simple - avoid character attacks, and don’t be passive aggressive. Be direct and firm. Otherwise people will go off topic and take whatever meaning they want (like I did with Linus’) comment and you did the same with the word toxic, which you introduced
floxy 2y ago
Maybe the part where he slanders Chuck Moore disciples? >main problem has been people who have been forthing at the mouth :-)

by jchw 2y ago

maccard 2y ago

Right at the end > So next time you want to write an email to complain about rust support: take a look in the mirror. > Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?

Teever 2y ago
How would you rewrite that to communicate that idea? Or would you just not communicate that idea? Why / Why not?
- maccard 2y ago
  I think there’s any number of ways to reword that without using passive aggressive remarks and accusing other people of venting when you’ve been driven to venting in response. Something as simple as “keep your venting off the mailing lists in future” is short to the point and gets the same message across without resorting to personal insults.
inetknght 2y ago
So your problem with the email is that you don't like it when a leadership guy tells people to look at themselves before they cry. Well, I'm glad you're not my lead. I want people to tell me when I'm doing something wrong. It's how I learn and grow.
- dayjah 2y ago
  Both can be true at once, right? Some folks need more carrot, some need more stick. I don’t know the actors in this play, but I assume Linus (who presumably does have a mental map for these actors) is choosing to strike a tone which gets the message across without causing lasting damage. Perhaps GP carries with them Linus’ priors resulting in a different reading of this specific message.
- maccard 2y ago
  You can provide direct actionable feedback without being passive aggressive and insulting people. Edit: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 here’s a really good example of Linus not taking any shit and doing so professionally
- mosburger 2y ago
  Good coaches and managers adjust their style to the person they're coaching. I learned that from Bill Belichick. XD
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    what kind of person requires the style of cheating? or sleeveless hoodies?
jchw 2y ago
Could certainly be less confrontational, but in this case, it doesn't really feel so unwarranted, in large part because coming from Linus regarding the Rust for Linux project, a stronger expression of frustration feels justifiable. It's a lot different than the real-life "toxic" communication I've witnessed, where the harshness is strictly one-sided and feels unjustifiable. But I guess the line will be up to taste. I've been on the receiving end of harsher communication that I don't feel was completely uncalled for, too. I certainly can be a stubborn person and sometimes reasonable communication just isn't getting the message across. On the other hand, there are people who basically never do anything to warrant being communicated to like this. It would be ideal if everyone could communicate calmly and always get the message across, but frankly it just doesn't seem to work that way.
- maccard 2y ago
  I disagree - the harshness here is personal insults and passive-aggressiveness. That's uncalled for and definitely "toxic". It's very possible to be assertive and shut down unconstructive discussions, as Linus has repeatedly shown. Here [0] is a great example of Linus being firm, assertive, calling someone out on their shit. [0] https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066
  - jchw 2y ago
    I really regret the proliferation of terms like "toxic" to describe things as benign as this. I think it's literally recoloring people's perception of what bad communication actually looks like.
    - maccard 2y ago
      You brought the word up, not me. The tiles are simple - avoid character attacks, and don’t be passive aggressive. Be direct and firm. Otherwise people will go off topic and take whatever meaning they want (like I did with Linus’) comment and you did the same with the word toxic, which you introduced

floxy 2y ago

Maybe the part where he slanders Chuck Moore disciples? >main problem has been people who have been forthing at the mouth :-)