4 ms·

You know, though, his conduct nowadays isn't really that bad; I don't think I'd be bothered by it in a workplace environment. He makes strong assertions, but no

• kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
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• maccard 2y ago
  > I don’t think I’d be bothered by it in a workplace environment https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/23/351 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/23/351 This was a month ago. I wouldn’t stand for this in a company I worked for.
  • jchw 2y ago
    I read it and it seemed alright to me. A bit firm yes, but damn are there times when I wish people would have communicate with me with this level of honesty about how they're feeling regarding something. In some places, people have communicated with me with that level of honesty. It does require you to make sure you're not taking things personally when they're not meant to be, but it's a lot better than people trading subtle cues all the time, which seems to just lead to more explosive issues later on when things inevitably hit a breaking point. Where do you really feel this message goes too far?
    • maccard 2y ago
      Right at the end > So next time you want to write an email to complain about rust support: take a look in the mirror. > Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?
      • Teever 2y ago
        How would you rewrite that to communicate that idea? Or would you just not communicate that idea? Why / Why not?
        • maccard 2y ago
          I think there’s any number of ways to reword that without using passive aggressive remarks and accusing other people of venting when you’ve been driven to venting in response. Something as simple as “keep your venting off the mailing lists in future” is short to the point and gets the same message across without resorting to personal insults.
      • inetknght 2y ago
        So your problem with the email is that you don't like it when a leadership guy tells people to look at themselves before they cry. Well, I'm glad you're not my lead. I want people to tell me when I'm doing something wrong. It's how I learn and grow.
        • dayjah 2y ago
          Both can be true at once, right? Some folks need more carrot, some need more stick. I don’t know the actors in this play, but I assume Linus (who presumably does have a mental map for these actors) is choosing to strike a tone which gets the message across without causing lasting damage. Perhaps GP carries with them Linus’ priors resulting in a different reading of this specific message.
        • maccard 2y ago
          You can provide direct actionable feedback without being passive aggressive and insulting people. Edit: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/20/2066 here’s a really good example of Linus not taking any shit and doing so professionally
        • mosburger 2y ago
          Good coaches and managers adjust their style to the person they're coaching. I learned that from Bill Belichick. XD
    • floxy 2y ago
      Maybe the part where he slanders Chuck Moore disciples? >main problem has been people who have been forthing at the mouth :-)
  • inetknght 2y ago
    What's your problem with this email? I would expect this kind of constructive criticism from any team lead with a functioning brain and without a yes-man attitude.
  • fn-mote 2y ago
    I agree with my sibling commentors, but I want to point out for people who do not go read the comment: this is not the off the walls Linus rant of the past. This is a very even-handed response where Linus tells people to calm down, that the purpose of linux-next is to discover problems, and that Rust is not causing all of the problems. At the very end there is a sentence or two that might be offensive, especially if you have a thin skin or aren't reflective about your own responses, but this is in no way akin to the bombs of the past.
    • maccard 2y ago
      I don’t think saying “he used to be worse” is a good defence. Has he gotten better? Yes. Is his email gone professional? No. I think you’re wrong about the end, it’s an unnecessary personal attack that’s only purpose is to insult and/or to make Linus feel better. If you remove the last two or three paragraphs it’s a perfectly fine constructive response. With them, it’s a shitty, unnecessary escalation.
      • johnisgood 2y ago
        Yes, it is unnecessary, but then again, a lot of things I say are unnecessary, too, so I ought to look in the mirror.
      • zamadatix 2y ago
        I don't think a "he used to be worse" defense is a takeaway from the above. The comment mentions the past to highlight it's not like previous rants people may assume it might be like to encourage giving it a read. Separate explanations were offered for why they believe the message was a reasonable response in its own light. I agree the last 2-3 paragraphs could be better but I disagree that's the bar for what's professional, let alone what is reasonable to stand out out of a month's worth of emails. It's also hard to square that message being so horrible by nature of being shitty and just to make Linus feel better - to me, these are more pointed and more personally directed statements than the supposedly problematic discourse they're about (though still relatively mild overall). We aren't all perfect in communication all the time, even the most ideal professionals. A large part of good discourse is accepting reasonable amounts of people being human and de-escalating smaller perceived slights naturally before declaring the conversation can't be stood for. Jumping at the latter can cause well meaning and well received folks to feel bullied, which is the exact opposite to the goal of trying to keep a professional air to discussion. Hell, some of the times I've been more colorfully told to look in the mirror were the best things which could have been said to me at the time (even if they might not be reasonable things to have heard at other times).
  • mort96 2y ago
    That was a very calm and well-written e-mail, and an impressively mature way to decisively take a position on a technical issue that's controversial within the team. The only note I have is that adding "or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent" at the end was unnecessary, but it's not necessarily even wrong.
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  • mynameisvlad 2y ago
    For someone in the games industry, you have an exceptionally thin skin and must have not been in many high stakes crises if the last two sentences bother you so much.
    • maccard 2y ago
      I don’t see how you can take away that they bother me so much and I must have a thin skin. If I saw them in a work email I’d ignore them and move on. If one of my direct reports sent that to a coworker I’d take them to the side and remind them to not be a dick . It’s perfectly possible to be firm and direct without insulting people.
  • Jare 2y ago
    Seriously? That criticism is more polite than some of my praises.
  • nchmy 2y ago
    What? There was literally nothing wrong with that message - including the final sentence. He's calling for everyone to self-reflect and have humility - only someone profoundly lacking in it could be bothered by a message like this
    • maccard 2y ago
      Is he? or is he venting at someone while accusing them of doing the same thing back. If instead of "Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?" he said "Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or do you just want to vent?" it's perfectly acceptable. The snide insults are petty, unprofessional, and unnecessary. > only someone profoundly lacking in it could be bothered by a message like this I could just as easily say that anyone who doesn't see that should look in a mirror and see if the see an ass staring back at them, but I wouldn't. When I read this, I see someone blowing off steam and knowing they can get away with it. I respect linus, and as I've said elsewhere he's perfectly capable of handling himself without resorting to passive aggressive insults.
      • nchmy 2y ago
        Of course it could have been written more diplomatically. Yet, many people clearly don't find it to be offensive/inappropriate - especially when viewed in the context of the entire post, which was very well written and diplomatic. Moreover, I can very much see how those precise words could be said verbally, in person, in a completely disarming, effective manner - by using particular pacing, tone, gestures, a wink, etc. Whether Linus would do that is another matter - but your comment was talking about how it would be inappropriate anywhere.
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • samiv 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • gus_massa 2y ago
      He is good herding cats. Sometimes you need a genius that can do incredible difficult stuff. Sometimes you need someone that is just very good and know how to avoid stupid stuff. Sometimes you need someone that is very good mixing technical and no technical decitions. Other projects have been forked, abandoned, kidnaped by the adult supervision, lost all user due to backward incompatible changes, ... The mantainer of an open source project has no moat. Linus only onws the name, but anyone can make a fork and try to make a better job.
    • mbac32768 2y ago
      and one day he got fed up with version control tools and stumbled ass backwards into revolutionizing that space too /s
  • senectus1 2y ago
    completely 100% disagree with this. Businesses are better and more efficient places with blunt honesty.
  • e40 2y ago
    In context, that is a great reply. Out of context it seems ok.