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The thing about being “poor” in Europe is, you can be “poor” your entire life by American standards of income/assets, but still never take on medical debt, trav

The thing about being “poor” in Europe is, you can be “poor” your entire life by American standards of income/assets, but still never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans cannot.

lurk2 2y ago
> Most Americans cannot. You have no idea what you’re talking about and there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making. The only two metrics Europeans win out on is life expectancy (by around 4 years) and (narrowly) on home ownership rate (around 5 percentage points higher in Europe). Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric.
- dagw 2y ago
  there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making Are you really arguing that Americans (and especially Americans below the median) don't have higher levels of medical debt, higher rates of medical bankruptcy, and get/take less vacation than Europeans.
  - lurk2 2y ago
    Those were not the claims being made. The claim was that: > Most Americans cannot: Never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans do these things, with the possible exception of month-long vacations.
- ponector 2y ago
  > Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric. $1.21 trillion in credit card debt, $1.66 trillion in car loans and $1.6 trillion in federal student loans - yes, Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier.
  - lurk2 2y ago
    Yes, they are. The largest of those three figures involves the purchase of a hard asset that provides utility to the purchaser over time. If you buy a $30,000 van, you’re not out $30,000, because you’ve received the van in exchange. I note that you didn’t provide equivalent figures for the EU, however, so I imagine you’re less interested in making an actual argument than you are in looking clever.
    - ponector 2y ago
      Do you know why it's hard to get national student debt figures for Europe? Credit cards and car loans are also not that popular. PS: if you buy 30k van you are down more than that as you need to get an insurance, gas, parking lot, pay tax, etc.
      - lurk2 2y ago
        > Do you know why it's hard to get national student debt figures for Europe If you’re implying that student debt doesn’t exist in Europe because schooling is “free” for everyone you are wrong. Plenty of European countries don’t provide free schooling and even the ones that do such as Germany often have a parallel private system for those who fail to get into the more exclusive public schools. Europeans who do graduate are then faced with substantially higher tax rates - education, like healthcare, doesn’t just fall out of the sky for free. Europeans also own credit cards; they probably have lower levels of debt than Americans (who have a fairly unique culture of credit-financed consumer spending), but they also aren’t capable of servicing the debt that an American can service, for the simple reason that they earn less than Americans. > PS: if you buy 30k van you are down more than that as you need to get an insurance, gas, parking lot, pay tax, etc. This is a red herring. When you eat dinner you not only have to pay for the food but also spend time purchasing, preparing, and eating it. This doesn’t prevent people from eating because they derive utility from eating which exceeds the opportunity costs associated with purchasing, preparing, and eating it.
- autoexec 2y ago
  It's certainly true that Europeans take more vacations and spend more time abroad. They also win on spending less time at work and more time with their loved ones.
  - lurk2 2y ago
    Those weren’t the claims the grandparent made. Europeans do work less and vacation more often, but even when you account for this, they still earn less per hour worked. Vacation time itself might be a good metric for quality of life (which I am not disputing is probably comparable if not better in Europe if you discount the importance of material wealth), but time abroad is not since Americans have access to a lot more variety within America than a European would have within their own country; it’s the same reason more Europeans have passports.

lurk2 2y ago

> Most Americans cannot. You have no idea what you’re talking about and there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making. The only two metrics Europeans win out on is life expectancy (by around 4 years) and (narrowly) on home ownership rate (around 5 percentage points higher in Europe). Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric.

dagw 2y ago
there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making Are you really arguing that Americans (and especially Americans below the median) don't have higher levels of medical debt, higher rates of medical bankruptcy, and get/take less vacation than Europeans.
- lurk2 2y ago
  Those were not the claims being made. The claim was that: > Most Americans cannot: Never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans do these things, with the possible exception of month-long vacations.
ponector 2y ago
> Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric. $1.21 trillion in credit card debt, $1.66 trillion in car loans and $1.6 trillion in federal student loans - yes, Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier.
- lurk2 2y ago
  Yes, they are. The largest of those three figures involves the purchase of a hard asset that provides utility to the purchaser over time. If you buy a $30,000 van, you’re not out $30,000, because you’ve received the van in exchange. I note that you didn’t provide equivalent figures for the EU, however, so I imagine you’re less interested in making an actual argument than you are in looking clever.
  - ponector 2y ago
    Do you know why it's hard to get national student debt figures for Europe? Credit cards and car loans are also not that popular. PS: if you buy 30k van you are down more than that as you need to get an insurance, gas, parking lot, pay tax, etc.
    - lurk2 2y ago
      > Do you know why it's hard to get national student debt figures for Europe If you’re implying that student debt doesn’t exist in Europe because schooling is “free” for everyone you are wrong. Plenty of European countries don’t provide free schooling and even the ones that do such as Germany often have a parallel private system for those who fail to get into the more exclusive public schools. Europeans who do graduate are then faced with substantially higher tax rates - education, like healthcare, doesn’t just fall out of the sky for free. Europeans also own credit cards; they probably have lower levels of debt than Americans (who have a fairly unique culture of credit-financed consumer spending), but they also aren’t capable of servicing the debt that an American can service, for the simple reason that they earn less than Americans. > PS: if you buy 30k van you are down more than that as you need to get an insurance, gas, parking lot, pay tax, etc. This is a red herring. When you eat dinner you not only have to pay for the food but also spend time purchasing, preparing, and eating it. This doesn’t prevent people from eating because they derive utility from eating which exceeds the opportunity costs associated with purchasing, preparing, and eating it.
autoexec 2y ago
It's certainly true that Europeans take more vacations and spend more time abroad. They also win on spending less time at work and more time with their loved ones.
- lurk2 2y ago
  Those weren’t the claims the grandparent made. Europeans do work less and vacation more often, but even when you account for this, they still earn less per hour worked. Vacation time itself might be a good metric for quality of life (which I am not disputing is probably comparable if not better in Europe if you discount the importance of material wealth), but time abroad is not since Americans have access to a lot more variety within America than a European would have within their own country; it’s the same reason more Europeans have passports.