4 ms·

Admittedly the last time I had to look for an apartment in Berlin was pre-COVID; but the search took more than a month only if you were limiting yourself to onl

by klausa 2y ago

Admittedly the last time I had to look for an apartment in Berlin was pre-COVID; but the search took more than a month only if you were limiting yourself to only the places that were close to Mietspiegel (or below), and the competition shrunk dramatically if you were willing to pay even slightly more. I know that made me a bad Berliner, but I’d rather just take the hit (and it wasn’t _that_ much more, we’re talking maybe 15%, not 2-3x) rather than try to find the perfect place for half a year? Or did the situation deteriorate much more since then?

ivan_gammel 2y ago
It of course depends. For a single engineer things are certainly easier than for a family with children when one of the parents is on parental leave. At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person and you may not be able to afford paying 2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms, so you will want rent-controlled apartment.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. >2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people, not SW engineers. >so you will want rent-controlled apartment How do you do that when you move there?
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    > My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. Right, so it’s even below average. > How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people That must be 7500 netto and should be affordable to families where both partners work and earn average salary. I don’t know the statistics and cannot give you exact number. My point is that a family with a single working partner is unlikely to afford it even if it’s an IC tech job. > How do you do that when you move there? Do what?
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >That must be 7500 netto and should be affordable to families where both partners work and earn average salary. How is 7500 netto affordable to average families when the yearly income per person is around 55k gross which is around 2900 netto per person so just below 6000 per household? >Do what? How do you get a rent controlled apartment. Given the shortage in housing. I thought that was clear from the context.
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        > How is 7500 netto affordable You are right, that’s 6000-6300 for average income depending on tax deductions. 2500 rent may still be affordable. > How do you get a rent controlled apartment. Just like any other one. People move out, existing apartments go back to the market.
- klausa 2y ago
  I think the disconnect here is that; as much as I wish that was the world we lived in (and it might have been possible in Berlin ~15-20 years ago), I don’t think “wide availability of four bedroom apartments affordable on a single middle-class income” is a reasonable expectation.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    In Germany we don’t say “four bedroom apartment”, we say “4-Zimmer Wohnung” usually meaning 3 bedrooms and a living room with kitchen. And no, this is absolutely an expectation that a middle-income family with children should be able to afford a decent place to live in. We have an artificial housing crisis in most Western countries, but there’s no objective economic reasons for it. It’s possible to build at scale and with good quality 3-4 times cheaper than current market prices.
    - klausa 2y ago
      >In Germany we don’t say “four bedroom apartment”, we say “4-Zimmer Wohnung” usually meaning 3 bedrooms and a living room with kitchen Haha, yes, sorry — I wrote "four room apartment" first, but then spending too much time with Americans online rubbed off on me and I "corrected" myself :) > And no, this is absolutely an expectation that a middle-income family with children should be able to afford a decent place to live in. We have an artificial housing crisis in most Western countries, but there’s no objective economic reasons for it. It’s possible to build at scale and with good quality 3-4 times cheaper than current market prices. I think we're mostly in agreement here! It _should_ be possible, and that _should_ be how our society works! We _should_ demand more! But currently, it just straight up is not. You can both be realistic about what living options are available as a single middle-class earner, _and_ be dissatisfied with the status quo. I don't think these are exclusive.

by klausa 2y ago

ivan_gammel 2y ago

It of course depends. For a single engineer things are certainly easier than for a family with children when one of the parents is on parental leave. At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person and you may not be able to afford paying 2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms, so you will want rent-controlled apartment.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. >2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people, not SW engineers. >so you will want rent-controlled apartment How do you do that when you move there?
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  > My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. Right, so it’s even below average. > How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people That must be 7500 netto and should be affordable to families where both partners work and earn average salary. I don’t know the statistics and cannot give you exact number. My point is that a family with a single working partner is unlikely to afford it even if it’s an IC tech job. > How do you do that when you move there? Do what?
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >That must be 7500 netto and should be affordable to families where both partners work and earn average salary. How is 7500 netto affordable to average families when the yearly income per person is around 55k gross which is around 2900 netto per person so just below 6000 per household? >Do what? How do you get a rent controlled apartment. Given the shortage in housing. I thought that was clear from the context.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      > How is 7500 netto affordable You are right, that’s 6000-6300 for average income depending on tax deductions. 2500 rent may still be affordable. > How do you get a rent controlled apartment. Just like any other one. People move out, existing apartments go back to the market.
klausa 2y ago
I think the disconnect here is that; as much as I wish that was the world we lived in (and it might have been possible in Berlin ~15-20 years ago), I don’t think “wide availability of four bedroom apartments affordable on a single middle-class income” is a reasonable expectation.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  In Germany we don’t say “four bedroom apartment”, we say “4-Zimmer Wohnung” usually meaning 3 bedrooms and a living room with kitchen. And no, this is absolutely an expectation that a middle-income family with children should be able to afford a decent place to live in. We have an artificial housing crisis in most Western countries, but there’s no objective economic reasons for it. It’s possible to build at scale and with good quality 3-4 times cheaper than current market prices.
  - klausa 2y ago
    >In Germany we don’t say “four bedroom apartment”, we say “4-Zimmer Wohnung” usually meaning 3 bedrooms and a living room with kitchen Haha, yes, sorry — I wrote "four room apartment" first, but then spending too much time with Americans online rubbed off on me and I "corrected" myself :) > And no, this is absolutely an expectation that a middle-income family with children should be able to afford a decent place to live in. We have an artificial housing crisis in most Western countries, but there’s no objective economic reasons for it. It’s possible to build at scale and with good quality 3-4 times cheaper than current market prices. I think we're mostly in agreement here! It _should_ be possible, and that _should_ be how our society works! We _should_ demand more! But currently, it just straight up is not. You can both be realistic about what living options are available as a single middle-class earner, _and_ be dissatisfied with the status quo. I don't think these are exclusive.