3 ms·

>Yes, quality of life is great (esp. in places like Berlin) How can quality of life be great when you can't find housing if you want to move there?

klausa 2y ago
Because you find an apartment every couple of years, and enjoy the city the other 59 months of every 60. The apartment situation in Berlin is bad, but I think it’s a bit silly to say you can’t have high quality of life because of it.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  You assume it only takes one month to find an apartment, all while you're constantly battling 200 other people in apartment visitations, for the chance to let a estate agent and landlord shit on you. Is that lifestyle enjoyable?
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  Apartment search may take 6-12 months, so it’s more like 48 of 60. People hold to their rent-controlled contracts as long as possible for this reason. If you are new to this city, bad luck. If you live here long enough, you may pay ca. 1k€ per month for 90 sqm in Mitte or neighboring parts of the city and absolutely enjoy your life in Berlin.
  - thenaturalist 2y ago
    Honestly, not much of this is typically a problem for "new" tech transplants. Their income still allows them to pick from what's on the market. Sure, if you become picky with regards to area, extras (balcony etc.) the supply is just so low it will take some time, but the reality is far from being unable to house yourself.
    - klausa 2y ago
      And if you move _after_ getting a job, you also instantly get an access to a whisper network about people that want Nachmieters too; which is also immensely helpful.
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        What does that mean exactly?
        klausa 2y ago
        With all due respect, if you do not understand what that sentence meant; I do not think discussion about rental market situation in Berlin with you will be productive. Anyone who actually ever lived in Berlin would have no trouble parsing that sentence; and I do not think having this conversation with someone who does not have that experience is really useful.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Where did I claim I lived in Berlin? I was asking because I'm looking to move there, but in your opinion that doesn't make me eligible for the conversation? Wow.
        klausa 2y ago
        Yes, I think not having personally experienced looking for apartment in Berlin makes you ineligible to comment on that, and I don’t think that’s a particularly radical stance. I wish you luck in finding a lovely place if you do decide to move, and hope you’ll have a great time!
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        So I'm not allowed to comment on this topic because I havent lived there, but you're an expert because of your pre pandemic experience that isn't valid in the current real estate market? Bruh....
  - klausa 2y ago
    Admittedly the last time I had to look for an apartment in Berlin was pre-COVID; but the search took more than a month only if you were limiting yourself to only the places that were close to Mietspiegel (or below), and the competition shrunk dramatically if you were willing to pay even slightly more. I know that made me a bad Berliner, but I’d rather just take the hit (and it wasn’t _that_ much more, we’re talking maybe 15%, not 2-3x) rather than try to find the perfect place for half a year? Or did the situation deteriorate much more since then?
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      It of course depends. For a single engineer things are certainly easier than for a family with children when one of the parents is on parental leave. At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person and you may not be able to afford paying 2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms, so you will want rent-controlled apartment.
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        >At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. >2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people, not SW engineers. >so you will want rent-controlled apartment How do you do that when you move there?
        ivan_gammel 2y ago
        > My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. Right, so it’s even below average. > How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people That must be 7500 netto and should be affordable to families where both partners work and earn average salary. I don’t know the statistics and cannot give you exact number. My point is that a family with a single working partner is unlikely to afford it even if it’s an IC tech job. > How do you do that when you move there? Do what?
thenaturalist 2y ago
Not to be pedantic, but effort required to find housing has almost no correlation to daily quality of life for inhabitants. Sure, housing is one factor, but as attested to by the net migration statistics, inflow into the city has accelerated and reached record levels in the past years. That is a clear indicator that quality of life is desirable for residents, simple as.

klausa 2y ago

Because you find an apartment every couple of years, and enjoy the city the other 59 months of every 60. The apartment situation in Berlin is bad, but I think it’s a bit silly to say you can’t have high quality of life because of it.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
You assume it only takes one month to find an apartment, all while you're constantly battling 200 other people in apartment visitations, for the chance to let a estate agent and landlord shit on you. Is that lifestyle enjoyable?
ivan_gammel 2y ago
Apartment search may take 6-12 months, so it’s more like 48 of 60. People hold to their rent-controlled contracts as long as possible for this reason. If you are new to this city, bad luck. If you live here long enough, you may pay ca. 1k€ per month for 90 sqm in Mitte or neighboring parts of the city and absolutely enjoy your life in Berlin.
- thenaturalist 2y ago
  Honestly, not much of this is typically a problem for "new" tech transplants. Their income still allows them to pick from what's on the market. Sure, if you become picky with regards to area, extras (balcony etc.) the supply is just so low it will take some time, but the reality is far from being unable to house yourself.
  - klausa 2y ago
    And if you move _after_ getting a job, you also instantly get an access to a whisper network about people that want Nachmieters too; which is also immensely helpful.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      What does that mean exactly?
      - klausa 2y ago
        With all due respect, if you do not understand what that sentence meant; I do not think discussion about rental market situation in Berlin with you will be productive. Anyone who actually ever lived in Berlin would have no trouble parsing that sentence; and I do not think having this conversation with someone who does not have that experience is really useful.
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Where did I claim I lived in Berlin? I was asking because I'm looking to move there, but in your opinion that doesn't make me eligible for the conversation? Wow.
        klausa 2y ago
        Yes, I think not having personally experienced looking for apartment in Berlin makes you ineligible to comment on that, and I don’t think that’s a particularly radical stance. I wish you luck in finding a lovely place if you do decide to move, and hope you’ll have a great time!
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        So I'm not allowed to comment on this topic because I havent lived there, but you're an expert because of your pre pandemic experience that isn't valid in the current real estate market? Bruh....
- klausa 2y ago
  Admittedly the last time I had to look for an apartment in Berlin was pre-COVID; but the search took more than a month only if you were limiting yourself to only the places that were close to Mietspiegel (or below), and the competition shrunk dramatically if you were willing to pay even slightly more. I know that made me a bad Berliner, but I’d rather just take the hit (and it wasn’t _that_ much more, we’re talking maybe 15%, not 2-3x) rather than try to find the perfect place for half a year? Or did the situation deteriorate much more since then?
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    It of course depends. For a single engineer things are certainly easier than for a family with children when one of the parents is on parental leave. At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person and you may not be able to afford paying 2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms, so you will want rent-controlled apartment.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >At 75-80k salary that would be only a median income per person My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. >2500€ per month or more for 3-4 rooms How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people, not SW engineers. >so you will want rent-controlled apartment How do you do that when you move there?
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        > My googling tells me the median Berlin salary is around 55K per year. Right, so it’s even below average. > How many families can afford 2500k rent? I'm talking about average people That must be 7500 netto and should be affordable to families where both partners work and earn average salary. I don’t know the statistics and cannot give you exact number. My point is that a family with a single working partner is unlikely to afford it even if it’s an IC tech job. > How do you do that when you move there? Do what?

thenaturalist 2y ago

Not to be pedantic, but effort required to find housing has almost no correlation to daily quality of life for inhabitants. Sure, housing is one factor, but as attested to by the net migration statistics, inflow into the city has accelerated and reached record levels in the past years. That is a clear indicator that quality of life is desirable for residents, simple as.