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> I usually look at things like https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use?tab https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use?tab... Th

> I usually look at things like https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use?tab https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use?tab... This shows per capita energy consumption steadily decreased from ~1985 to 2023 almost back to the level of 1960. Should that indicate an energy crisis? The graphs from the whole EU or the USA don't look much different so I don't see how the chart helps. What numbers could be looked at to identify that energy crisis?

roenxi 2y ago
You seem to have spotted all the salient features, I'm not sure what you want me to add. To the questions - yes and those numbers. I remain mystified by the people who can look at a 25% drop in energy use, steady relative collapse of power relative to Asia and the gentle collapse of the political fabric and just shrug and say everything is fine. I dunno what the AfD needs to poll at before the German elite admit that maybe they screwed up the last few decades. The statistics suggest there is a massive problem here.
- master-lincoln 2y ago
  But then we would have that same massive problem in the USA and the whole of Europe. Is that the case?
  - roenxi 2y ago
    Yes. Do you not follow much politics? The US is currently undergoing one of the most spectacular political revolutions since the 1930s. The Overton window includes issues like the collapse of the US Not-An-Empire, invading Canada and deciding what form the civil war is going to take [0]. Driven by a gentleman standing up and shouting "drill baby drill" and talking about how the country needs cheap energy to drive a manufacturing renaissance as one of his central policies. Europe is currently re-arming because war has returned to the continent with around a million dead and escalating - discovering as they do so that service economies don't have an obvious path to stopping troop movements [1]. There is a mirroring political revolt brewing there as we see a large number of rather disgruntled alternative parties start to gain traction pointing out decades of failed policy that suggest living standards have been slipping. Most of the activity is the downstream impacts of energy policy. People are on edge because the real economic pie is not only stagnant, but shrinking and they're figuring it out. [0] I recommend vicious debate, but physical violence seems to be a possiblity. [1] And, realistically, if China ever openly supports Russia then Europe will probably lose any fight that eventuates. There is an interesting geopolitical balance forming.
- atq2119 2y ago
  Why would a 25% drop in energy use necessarily indicate an energy crisis? Isn't it far more likely that a shift in economic composition changed the energy consumption? That shift might be a bad thing, but it's not an energy crisis.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    I don't think you have a real point there. I'd draw a parallel with someone getting hit by a car and; someone shouts out "we need an ambulence this is a medical crisis!" and a helpful bystander pipes up to say the issue here is really more of a mechanical nature, nothing went wrong medically - this is all just a result of poor driving skills and is really a driver education crisis. I mean, ok? Maybe call an ambulance anyway? Or in this case stop with the pressure against building out & using cheap energy.

roenxi 2y ago

You seem to have spotted all the salient features, I'm not sure what you want me to add. To the questions - yes and those numbers. I remain mystified by the people who can look at a 25% drop in energy use, steady relative collapse of power relative to Asia and the gentle collapse of the political fabric and just shrug and say everything is fine. I dunno what the AfD needs to poll at before the German elite admit that maybe they screwed up the last few decades. The statistics suggest there is a massive problem here.

master-lincoln 2y ago
But then we would have that same massive problem in the USA and the whole of Europe. Is that the case?
- roenxi 2y ago
  Yes. Do you not follow much politics? The US is currently undergoing one of the most spectacular political revolutions since the 1930s. The Overton window includes issues like the collapse of the US Not-An-Empire, invading Canada and deciding what form the civil war is going to take [0]. Driven by a gentleman standing up and shouting "drill baby drill" and talking about how the country needs cheap energy to drive a manufacturing renaissance as one of his central policies. Europe is currently re-arming because war has returned to the continent with around a million dead and escalating - discovering as they do so that service economies don't have an obvious path to stopping troop movements [1]. There is a mirroring political revolt brewing there as we see a large number of rather disgruntled alternative parties start to gain traction pointing out decades of failed policy that suggest living standards have been slipping. Most of the activity is the downstream impacts of energy policy. People are on edge because the real economic pie is not only stagnant, but shrinking and they're figuring it out. [0] I recommend vicious debate, but physical violence seems to be a possiblity. [1] And, realistically, if China ever openly supports Russia then Europe will probably lose any fight that eventuates. There is an interesting geopolitical balance forming.
atq2119 2y ago
Why would a 25% drop in energy use necessarily indicate an energy crisis? Isn't it far more likely that a shift in economic composition changed the energy consumption? That shift might be a bad thing, but it's not an energy crisis.
- roenxi 2y ago
  I don't think you have a real point there. I'd draw a parallel with someone getting hit by a car and; someone shouts out "we need an ambulence this is a medical crisis!" and a helpful bystander pipes up to say the issue here is really more of a mechanical nature, nothing went wrong medically - this is all just a result of poor driving skills and is really a driver education crisis. I mean, ok? Maybe call an ambulance anyway? Or in this case stop with the pressure against building out & using cheap energy.