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Your proposed response to civil liberties violations by the US is for EU countries to do the same? What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to pr

by gruez 2y ago

Your proposed response to civil liberties violations by the US is for EU countries to do the same? What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members?

exe34 2y ago
it's almost as if American citizens were responsible for who they elected.
- mc32 2y ago
  True but only because the last guy as well as the gal they offered as alternatives were so out of touch. You can tell because now Newsom is singing a different tune. He even denies ever using the word “latinx” and Bernie now claims secure borders are a must… Don’t put people is a position where they will make a choice you (the other guys and gals) will regret. Don’t “dare” them.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    Bernie was never big on immigration [1]. He's just big on being a decent person. So don't do things like store people on concrete floors under 24h lights. It doesn't mean that he wants unfettered immigration. > (2015) [2] So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. “Open borders?” he interjected. “No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.” The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. “I think from a moral responsibility, we’ve got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty,” he conceded, “but you don’t do that by making people in this country even poorer.” [1]: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/bernie-sanders-immigration-record-explained https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/b... [2]:
  - exe34 2y ago
    "look at what you made me do" - the narcissist prayer.
- harry_ord 2y ago
  Yes but not all of them, no need to drag every person into this.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    The majority did. That’s how democracy works; you take responsibility for the elected government, regardless of your personal opinion.
    - DougN7 2y ago
      It was a slim majority of those who actually voted, so less than half of eligible voters. There are many, many people who are not happy with how things are going.
      - mosburger 2y ago
        It doesn't matter. If it's not our (I'm from the U.S.) fault, then whose fault is it? We all, collectively, are ultimately responsible for the outcome of the election. It was our job to convince everyone, including those who didn't vote, to vote for the opposition instead. We failed. People who are hurt by the policies of this administration aren't going to say "gee, one third of the United States really sucks." Nor should they. Right now, the United States sucks. The onus is on us, all of us, to fix it.
        Trasmatta 2y ago
        I voted, donated a ton of money, and canvassed in swing states. I'm not taking any of the blame for what happened.
        exe34 2y ago
        Every time there's a school shooting, somebody defends gun rights "because muh well-armed militias" - I'm yet to see that put into action. Or maybe the well-armed militias are happy with the "progress".
- alwillis 2y ago
  About 90 million Americans didn’t vote in the election; 75 million voted for his opponent That’s 165 million people—about 60%—of Americans who didn’t vote for the current president.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Those who did not vote but could have, effectively voted for whoever ended up being the winner. By choosing not to vote, they were indicating they were OK with whoever won.
    - alwillis 2y ago
      > By choosing not to vote, they were indicating they were OK with whoever won. That’s definitely not how it works. I didn’t vote in 2016 but was definitely NOT okay with Trump winning. I also live in a state where Hillary Clinton won every county that year, so my non-vote made no difference in the outcome. On the other hand, if I lived in a swing state or if we elected the president by popular vote, I would have voted for Clinton regardless of my personal feelings. Also many people choose not to vote to express their dislike for both candidates.
imcritic 2y ago
His proposal was towards only U.S. nationals, to make them feel what they deserve.
- gruez 2y ago
  My previous comment proposed something similar for Salvadoran travelers. To top it off, El Salvador's president has 90% approval rating, compared to trumps ~45%, so they arguably deserve it even more.
  - chirau 2y ago
    What are you talking about? El Salvador is not doing all this scrutiny on incoming travelers.
mschuster91 2y ago
> What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? For that case, try international sanctions - of which, yes, increasing visa requirements or banning entry bar special cases (say a Salvadorian having family in the EU) certainly is an option that should be discussed. The EU has strength through the size of its population and economy, and it's time we finally start playing our cards instead of just bending over.
- ghaff 2y ago
  As someone who travels from the US to Europe a lot, my reaction would be sadly shrug my shoulders and not travel to the EU any longer if the requirements were as onerous as, say, China or Russia. (Letters from an organization, etc.) Yes, the UK put ETA in place but that's trivial and mostly symbolic. Took me about 2 minutes to complete which was mostly about grabbing my passport to get the number.
tzs 2y ago
> What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? That comparison doesn't really make sense. What mschuster91 proposed is that in response to the US mistreating EU visitors the EU should mistreat US visitors. It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. In your comparison it would be others responding to El Salvador mistreating its own citizens by also mistreating El Salvador's citizens. It is missing the crucial symmetry of a tit for tat.
- the_other 2y ago
  Country B starts doing shady stuff. Country A wants to differentiate itself from B, to retain its A-ness. If A imposes policies that match B's, A becomes more like B. B has exerted soft power over A, and is now in a stronger position to take control of A than it was before.
- latexr 2y ago
  > It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. And then the cycle of hate and harm becomes infinite. Or, in other words: > An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind.¹ Random US citizens are not at fault for random US border agents harming random EU citizens. By all means, have the EU refuse entry to US citizens, but treating them like the US does—imprisoning them for weeks—is unacceptable even in retaliation. ¹ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Individuals aren't, but US citizens, collectively, are at fault for the behavior of the US government.
raducu 2y ago
>. What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? Genuine curiosity, are you a Trump fan?

by gruez 2y ago

exe34 2y ago

it's almost as if American citizens were responsible for who they elected.

mc32 2y ago
True but only because the last guy as well as the gal they offered as alternatives were so out of touch. You can tell because now Newsom is singing a different tune. He even denies ever using the word “latinx” and Bernie now claims secure borders are a must… Don’t put people is a position where they will make a choice you (the other guys and gals) will regret. Don’t “dare” them.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  Bernie was never big on immigration [1]. He's just big on being a decent person. So don't do things like store people on concrete floors under 24h lights. It doesn't mean that he wants unfettered immigration. > (2015) [2] So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. “Open borders?” he interjected. “No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.” The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. “I think from a moral responsibility, we’ve got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty,” he conceded, “but you don’t do that by making people in this country even poorer.” [1]: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/bernie-sanders-immigration-record-explained https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/25/21143931/b... [2]:
- exe34 2y ago
  "look at what you made me do" - the narcissist prayer.
harry_ord 2y ago
Yes but not all of them, no need to drag every person into this.
- 9dev 2y ago
  The majority did. That’s how democracy works; you take responsibility for the elected government, regardless of your personal opinion.
  - DougN7 2y ago
    It was a slim majority of those who actually voted, so less than half of eligible voters. There are many, many people who are not happy with how things are going.
    - mosburger 2y ago
      It doesn't matter. If it's not our (I'm from the U.S.) fault, then whose fault is it? We all, collectively, are ultimately responsible for the outcome of the election. It was our job to convince everyone, including those who didn't vote, to vote for the opposition instead. We failed. People who are hurt by the policies of this administration aren't going to say "gee, one third of the United States really sucks." Nor should they. Right now, the United States sucks. The onus is on us, all of us, to fix it.
      - Trasmatta 2y ago
        I voted, donated a ton of money, and canvassed in swing states. I'm not taking any of the blame for what happened.
        exe34 2y ago
        Every time there's a school shooting, somebody defends gun rights "because muh well-armed militias" - I'm yet to see that put into action. Or maybe the well-armed militias are happy with the "progress".
alwillis 2y ago
About 90 million Americans didn’t vote in the election; 75 million voted for his opponent That’s 165 million people—about 60%—of Americans who didn’t vote for the current president.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Those who did not vote but could have, effectively voted for whoever ended up being the winner. By choosing not to vote, they were indicating they were OK with whoever won.
  - alwillis 2y ago
    > By choosing not to vote, they were indicating they were OK with whoever won. That’s definitely not how it works. I didn’t vote in 2016 but was definitely NOT okay with Trump winning. I also live in a state where Hillary Clinton won every county that year, so my non-vote made no difference in the outcome. On the other hand, if I lived in a swing state or if we elected the president by popular vote, I would have voted for Clinton regardless of my personal feelings. Also many people choose not to vote to express their dislike for both candidates.

imcritic 2y ago

His proposal was towards only U.S. nationals, to make them feel what they deserve.

gruez 2y ago
My previous comment proposed something similar for Salvadoran travelers. To top it off, El Salvador's president has 90% approval rating, compared to trumps ~45%, so they arguably deserve it even more.
- chirau 2y ago
  What are you talking about? El Salvador is not doing all this scrutiny on incoming travelers.

mschuster91 2y ago

> What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? For that case, try international sanctions - of which, yes, increasing visa requirements or banning entry bar special cases (say a Salvadorian having family in the EU) certainly is an option that should be discussed. The EU has strength through the size of its population and economy, and it's time we finally start playing our cards instead of just bending over.

ghaff 2y ago
As someone who travels from the US to Europe a lot, my reaction would be sadly shrug my shoulders and not travel to the EU any longer if the requirements were as onerous as, say, China or Russia. (Letters from an organization, etc.) Yes, the UK put ETA in place but that's trivial and mostly symbolic. Took me about 2 minutes to complete which was mostly about grabbing my passport to get the number.

tzs 2y ago

> What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? That comparison doesn't really make sense. What mschuster91 proposed is that in response to the US mistreating EU visitors the EU should mistreat US visitors. It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. In your comparison it would be others responding to El Salvador mistreating its own citizens by also mistreating El Salvador's citizens. It is missing the crucial symmetry of a tit for tat.

the_other 2y ago
Country B starts doing shady stuff. Country A wants to differentiate itself from B, to retain its A-ness. If A imposes policies that match B's, A becomes more like B. B has exerted soft power over A, and is now in a stronger position to take control of A than it was before.
latexr 2y ago
> It's a straightforward symmetrical tit for tat. One party starts harming another, that other reciprocates with a similar harm directed to the first party. And then the cycle of hate and harm becomes infinite. Or, in other words: > An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind.¹ Random US citizens are not at fault for random US border agents harming random EU citizens. By all means, have the EU refuse entry to US citizens, but treating them like the US does—imprisoning them for weeks—is unacceptable even in retaliation. ¹ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Individuals aren't, but US citizens, collectively, are at fault for the behavior of the US government.

raducu 2y ago

>. What's next, arbitrarily arresting Salvadoran travelers to protest their government's arbitrary arrest of gang members? Genuine curiosity, are you a Trump fan?