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> European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our governm

by lurk2 2y ago

> European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our government. Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans. They are also substantially poorer than Americans, and those numbers get worse when you account for America’s average being skewed lower by having a higher proportion of recent immigrants with lower earning potentials.

askonomm 2y ago
And yet, by all accounts we have a higher life quality than Americans. Only Americans care about money, because in USA you don't get anything without paying for it all yourself. Here we have minimum mandatory vacations for 4 weeks per year, and many countries have a lot more than that, most countries have a year or more of maternity leave, paid of course, we have plenty of public holidays, paid of course, and we don't need to do work while in a hospital or when giving birth, as that would be illegal for the employer to ask of you. There's also no at-will firing just because your boss doesn't like your face, there needs to be an actual reason proving that a person cannot fulfill responsibilities, and there also needs to be a chance given to improve on the mistakes before firing a person. Our food is not riddled in toxic waste because of those horrible regulations that Americans don't like, our air is breathable because of those same horrible regulations, companies are not allowed to just steal and sell all of our data or keep it indefinitely, because of those horrible regulations, which makes American tyrants mad because they can't make their billion dollar startups here so easily since they're used to breaking the law, abusing people, or paying off governments to get what they want, which is a lot harder to do here. Much sad, many tear, for the poor American startup founder. Europeans by and large don't share the same values as Americans. Being filthy rich isn't our goal, our goal is good health, spending time with our loved ones, having plenty of time to rest and dedicate on our hobbies, and being treated fairly and with respect. Americans on the other hand care about money at all cost, doesn't matter if it's at the expense of working class people, and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy. I also don't know what freedom of speech you are talking about since I read the news and USA seems to have everything, BUT freedom of speech. Your education is down the toilet, crime is rampant, police murders minorities on a regular basis, school shootings everywhere, a government as corrupt as can possibly be, people fired en masse everywhere for not replying to an e-mail ...
- mattw2121 2y ago
  After reading your comment, one might come to the conclusion that Europeans see Americans through the lens of reporting and social media, just as Americans see Europeans through the same lens. Both sides believe characterizations of the other.
  - askonomm 2y ago
    The conclusion is correct, I would say. I know plenty of Americans who are not the archetype I portrayed, but this is HN, and that’s the HN American I see here a lot. Not all, but a lot. And we seem to be fundamentally incompatible. It’s really unfortunate, but that’s what it seems to me, and I’m sorry for the bitter undertones, it’s just really hard to stay optimistic in the current social climate.
  - fn-mote 2y ago
    > one might come to the conclusion that Europeans see Americans through the lens of reporting and social media Heck, Americans see Americans through the lens of reporting and social media. Look at the incredibly polarized climate. Why is it a novelty to just bring together people of "opposite sides" to talk? When political "debate" is just a grounds to get your sound bites out to the media, democracy is in danger. And not just from the current administration.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  > and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy In my last startup in Germany, I worked with a bunch of ex-management consultants who had all worked in a famous consultancy in the USA (you've definitely heard of it). They all shared stories of Americans staying 12+ hours in the office but not actually doing anything. It was all performant "we're working really hard", mostly chatting to each other and scrolling social media. The Germans were incredibly frustrated because getting anything actually done was really difficult, and they ended up mostly sharing the work amongst themselves so they could actually get it done. Needless to say, their American colleagues thought they didn't work hard because they left the office after only 10 hours or so. I've seen this in American-influenced startup culture, too - a tendency to use hours spent moistening a chair as a productivity measure, because measuring actual productivity was "too hard".
neffy 2y ago
We're really not. Just the health care issues, which can be directly seen in the life expectancy figures, make us materially richer, never mind anything else. And I much prefer not needing to exercise my rights to self-defence in the first place, than to have to worry about carrying a gun around all the time, and whether or not a child might get accidentally get access to it. See also gun shooting figures.
- lurk2 2y ago
  > We're really not. Just the health care issues, which can be directly seen in the life expectancy figures, make us materially richer, never mind anything else. They don’t. Americans earn something like 1/3rd more than the average European. They have substantially larger houses and own more cars. > And I much prefer not needing to exercise my rights to self-defence in the first place The vast majority of people will never need to use a gun whether they are in the US or Europe. The position you’re taking is one that it is convenient for you to take because you are not currently the victim a violent crime. This is akin to someone talking about all of the money they are saving by driving without insurance.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    I lived in Berlin for a while. Most people don't own a car in Berlin. Not because of poverty, but because the city is walkable (you can walk from one side to the other in an afternoon, it's a lovely thing to do on a summer's day). Your metric of "own more cars" is not incorrect, just irrelevant. It's like saying that Europeans are wealthier because they are more likely to have a passport. Likewise for "substantially larger houses". This is just not a relevant metric - Europeans generally live in denser cities, with more apartment living, more cycling, more parks. That's a preference. It's got nothing to do with wealth. Europeans don't have smaller houses because they can't afford them, but because they prefer living in smaller, denser, more walkable cities.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      It's interesting because I have been to many walkable places in southeast Asia with extremely cheap collective taxis, but even then most extended families have a small motorbike so they can visit another village without all the bother of begging/renting/borrowing.
Viliam1234 2y ago
> Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans. In theory. Articles like this are about how it works in practice.
- lurk2 2y ago
  My point here was not to idealize America but to criticize the idealization of Europe.
williamdclt 2y ago
> Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans That is true. However Europeans tend to believe that restricting some freedom leads to higher overall freedom: I can exercise a lot more freedom when I don't risk a gun pointed at me. I'm a much freer thinker when religious agenda pushed (overtly or subtly) on me (directly or through societal influence). Same for misinformation and other propaganda. From a European perspective, "american freedom" seems like "free as in free-for-all", which certainly doesn't lead to the highest level of personal freedom. It's a local optimum at best. > They are also substantially poorer than Americans According to this random source (first result for "poverty rate by country") https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poverty-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poverty-r..., America has a similar or worse poverty rate than a lot of Europe (not that European countries can easily be compared). Salaries tend to be higher in the US of course, that doesn't translate directly to living conditions and poverty. Regardless, I don't think that Europe's path to improve poverty level is US-style individual freedom.
- rob74 2y ago
  I think it's not just about poverty, some stats about "precarious employment" - as in "I'm above the poverty line, but if I lose my job (or even one of the two jobs I have to do to get by), that will change very quickly" - would also be interesting...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
marcus_holmes 2y ago
The self-defence thing absolutely fascinates me. What are you guys so scared of? It's a literal fact that a gun is much more likely to be used to kill its owner (or a member of the owner's own family) than any intruder or external threat [0] Why is this such a thing in the USA? Why do you guys hold gun ownership up as this amazing freedom when owing a gun is literally, provably, way more of a threat to you and your family than anyone else? [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/
- ty6853 2y ago
  A gun is effective for suicide, yeah. We don't have suicide clinics in the states like Europe has, at least that I'm aware of. So people buy guns then off themselves. You have the causation backwards.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Yes, I agree, there's definitely that. I know I would not be alive now if I had easy access to a gun. But the parent is talking about the USA having more self-defence freedoms, and gun ownership is definitely part of that. It's not about suicide, it's that weird "you gotta protect your family" that non-Americans find a bit worrying - what are you so scared of? I've lived in a few countries and nowhere I've lived has this level of fear. I've never felt that I would be safer if I owned a gun. I have no idea who I'd use it against (except myself, obviously).
    - ty6853 2y ago
      I live next to the us-mexico border, in a place with basically no police services. There are (true) signs everywhere warning of cartels roaming, often with automatic weapons diverted from the Mexican military. Maybe they won't ever bother me, but better to have and not need, than the other way around.
      - monkey_monkey 2y ago
        I mean, if the cartel with their automatic weapons come at you, do you really think your stash is going to protect you? Also, lack of police services is probably commensurate with the low levels of taxation that so many Americans desperately want and vote for.
999900000999 2y ago
America has more ultra rich people and high income earners. But if you’re poor and have an easily treatable illness, say type 1 diabetes, you’ll die begging for insulin. It’s very easy to lose everything within a few months. You get sick, lose your job, your entire family loses health insurance. We have this stupid prosperity gospel idea which conversely means poverty is your fault. Can’t afford medicine for your kids, well I guess it’s their fault for having a loser dad. Taxes are still absurdly high in America for what you actually receive. Have any serious medical issues and you’ll be spending thousands upon thousands per month on top of 600 to 700$ for essentially useless health insurance. We’re also a fear based society. When I visited London it’s perfectly normal to see single women waiting for the bus at 2am or whatever. Here as a grown man I got freaked out when I was approached by a stranger around 7pm. Was he going to rob me ? He actually was a local politician passing out flyers , but we live in paranoia land. America is closer to a developing country in both medical care and violent crime. I know I’d rather raise a family in Berlin than almost any American city.
- vel0city 2y ago
  > We’re also a fear based society. When I visited London it’s perfectly normal to see single women waiting for the bus at 2am or whatever. Here as a grown man I got freaked out when I was approached by a stranger around 7pm. Was he going to rob me ? > He actually was a local politician passing out flyers, but we live in paranoia land. Sounds like you're a part of the paranoia. Violent crime happens mostly in small pockets but quite densely where it happens. But generally, most places are perfectly safe. I've had so many experiences of telling friends I'm off to walk the dog around midnight or whatever and I get responses like "oh is that safe?" Of course it is! I do it all the time. People seriously think if you walk outside at night nearly anywhere, you're likely to be assaulted despite never having such a thing happen to anyone they know. So many people are scared to ride public transit thinking "what if I'm attacked?!" And yet hopping in their car is the least safe thing they'll do that day with over 100 people dying in car accidents every day. You're way more likely to die a painful death in that car than you are riding the bus, and yet people question if it's safe to ride transit.
pseudocomposer 2y ago
The thing about being “poor” in Europe is, you can be “poor” your entire life by American standards of income/assets, but still never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans cannot.
- lurk2 2y ago
  > Most Americans cannot. You have no idea what you’re talking about and there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making. The only two metrics Europeans win out on is life expectancy (by around 4 years) and (narrowly) on home ownership rate (around 5 percentage points higher in Europe). Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric.
  - dagw 2y ago
    there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making Are you really arguing that Americans (and especially Americans below the median) don't have higher levels of medical debt, higher rates of medical bankruptcy, and get/take less vacation than Europeans.
    - lurk2 2y ago
      Those were not the claims being made. The claim was that: > Most Americans cannot: Never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans do these things, with the possible exception of month-long vacations.
  - ponector 2y ago
    > Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric. $1.21 trillion in credit card debt, $1.66 trillion in car loans and $1.6 trillion in federal student loans - yes, Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier.
    - 2y ago

by lurk2 2y ago

askonomm 2y ago

And yet, by all accounts we have a higher life quality than Americans. Only Americans care about money, because in USA you don't get anything without paying for it all yourself. Here we have minimum mandatory vacations for 4 weeks per year, and many countries have a lot more than that, most countries have a year or more of maternity leave, paid of course, we have plenty of public holidays, paid of course, and we don't need to do work while in a hospital or when giving birth, as that would be illegal for the employer to ask of you. There's also no at-will firing just because your boss doesn't like your face, there needs to be an actual reason proving that a person cannot fulfill responsibilities, and there also needs to be a chance given to improve on the mistakes before firing a person. Our food is not riddled in toxic waste because of those horrible regulations that Americans don't like, our air is breathable because of those same horrible regulations, companies are not allowed to just steal and sell all of our data or keep it indefinitely, because of those horrible regulations, which makes American tyrants mad because they can't make their billion dollar startups here so easily since they're used to breaking the law, abusing people, or paying off governments to get what they want, which is a lot harder to do here. Much sad, many tear, for the poor American startup founder. Europeans by and large don't share the same values as Americans. Being filthy rich isn't our goal, our goal is good health, spending time with our loved ones, having plenty of time to rest and dedicate on our hobbies, and being treated fairly and with respect. Americans on the other hand care about money at all cost, doesn't matter if it's at the expense of working class people, and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy. I also don't know what freedom of speech you are talking about since I read the news and USA seems to have everything, BUT freedom of speech. Your education is down the toilet, crime is rampant, police murders minorities on a regular basis, school shootings everywhere, a government as corrupt as can possibly be, people fired en masse everywhere for not replying to an e-mail ...

mattw2121 2y ago
After reading your comment, one might come to the conclusion that Europeans see Americans through the lens of reporting and social media, just as Americans see Europeans through the same lens. Both sides believe characterizations of the other.
- askonomm 2y ago
  The conclusion is correct, I would say. I know plenty of Americans who are not the archetype I portrayed, but this is HN, and that’s the HN American I see here a lot. Not all, but a lot. And we seem to be fundamentally incompatible. It’s really unfortunate, but that’s what it seems to me, and I’m sorry for the bitter undertones, it’s just really hard to stay optimistic in the current social climate.
- fn-mote 2y ago
  > one might come to the conclusion that Europeans see Americans through the lens of reporting and social media Heck, Americans see Americans through the lens of reporting and social media. Look at the incredibly polarized climate. Why is it a novelty to just bring together people of "opposite sides" to talk? When political "debate" is just a grounds to get your sound bites out to the media, democracy is in danger. And not just from the current administration.
marcus_holmes 2y ago
> and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy In my last startup in Germany, I worked with a bunch of ex-management consultants who had all worked in a famous consultancy in the USA (you've definitely heard of it). They all shared stories of Americans staying 12+ hours in the office but not actually doing anything. It was all performant "we're working really hard", mostly chatting to each other and scrolling social media. The Germans were incredibly frustrated because getting anything actually done was really difficult, and they ended up mostly sharing the work amongst themselves so they could actually get it done. Needless to say, their American colleagues thought they didn't work hard because they left the office after only 10 hours or so. I've seen this in American-influenced startup culture, too - a tendency to use hours spent moistening a chair as a productivity measure, because measuring actual productivity was "too hard".

neffy 2y ago

We're really not. Just the health care issues, which can be directly seen in the life expectancy figures, make us materially richer, never mind anything else. And I much prefer not needing to exercise my rights to self-defence in the first place, than to have to worry about carrying a gun around all the time, and whether or not a child might get accidentally get access to it. See also gun shooting figures.

lurk2 2y ago
> We're really not. Just the health care issues, which can be directly seen in the life expectancy figures, make us materially richer, never mind anything else. They don’t. Americans earn something like 1/3rd more than the average European. They have substantially larger houses and own more cars. > And I much prefer not needing to exercise my rights to self-defence in the first place The vast majority of people will never need to use a gun whether they are in the US or Europe. The position you’re taking is one that it is convenient for you to take because you are not currently the victim a violent crime. This is akin to someone talking about all of the money they are saving by driving without insurance.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  I lived in Berlin for a while. Most people don't own a car in Berlin. Not because of poverty, but because the city is walkable (you can walk from one side to the other in an afternoon, it's a lovely thing to do on a summer's day). Your metric of "own more cars" is not incorrect, just irrelevant. It's like saying that Europeans are wealthier because they are more likely to have a passport. Likewise for "substantially larger houses". This is just not a relevant metric - Europeans generally live in denser cities, with more apartment living, more cycling, more parks. That's a preference. It's got nothing to do with wealth. Europeans don't have smaller houses because they can't afford them, but because they prefer living in smaller, denser, more walkable cities.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    It's interesting because I have been to many walkable places in southeast Asia with extremely cheap collective taxis, but even then most extended families have a small motorbike so they can visit another village without all the bother of begging/renting/borrowing.

Viliam1234 2y ago

> Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans. In theory. Articles like this are about how it works in practice.

lurk2 2y ago
My point here was not to idealize America but to criticize the idealization of Europe.

williamdclt 2y ago

> Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans That is true. However Europeans tend to believe that restricting some freedom leads to higher overall freedom: I can exercise a lot more freedom when I don't risk a gun pointed at me. I'm a much freer thinker when religious agenda pushed (overtly or subtly) on me (directly or through societal influence). Same for misinformation and other propaganda. From a European perspective, "american freedom" seems like "free as in free-for-all", which certainly doesn't lead to the highest level of personal freedom. It's a local optimum at best. > They are also substantially poorer than Americans According to this random source (first result for "poverty rate by country") https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poverty-rate-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poverty-r..., America has a similar or worse poverty rate than a lot of Europe (not that European countries can easily be compared). Salaries tend to be higher in the US of course, that doesn't translate directly to living conditions and poverty. Regardless, I don't think that Europe's path to improve poverty level is US-style individual freedom.

rob74 2y ago
I think it's not just about poverty, some stats about "precarious employment" - as in "I'm above the poverty line, but if I lose my job (or even one of the two jobs I have to do to get by), that will change very quickly" - would also be interesting...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

marcus_holmes 2y ago

The self-defence thing absolutely fascinates me. What are you guys so scared of? It's a literal fact that a gun is much more likely to be used to kill its owner (or a member of the owner's own family) than any intruder or external threat [0] Why is this such a thing in the USA? Why do you guys hold gun ownership up as this amazing freedom when owing a gun is literally, provably, way more of a threat to you and your family than anyone else? [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/

ty6853 2y ago
A gun is effective for suicide, yeah. We don't have suicide clinics in the states like Europe has, at least that I'm aware of. So people buy guns then off themselves. You have the causation backwards.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Yes, I agree, there's definitely that. I know I would not be alive now if I had easy access to a gun. But the parent is talking about the USA having more self-defence freedoms, and gun ownership is definitely part of that. It's not about suicide, it's that weird "you gotta protect your family" that non-Americans find a bit worrying - what are you so scared of? I've lived in a few countries and nowhere I've lived has this level of fear. I've never felt that I would be safer if I owned a gun. I have no idea who I'd use it against (except myself, obviously).
  - ty6853 2y ago
    I live next to the us-mexico border, in a place with basically no police services. There are (true) signs everywhere warning of cartels roaming, often with automatic weapons diverted from the Mexican military. Maybe they won't ever bother me, but better to have and not need, than the other way around.
    - monkey_monkey 2y ago
      I mean, if the cartel with their automatic weapons come at you, do you really think your stash is going to protect you? Also, lack of police services is probably commensurate with the low levels of taxation that so many Americans desperately want and vote for.

999900000999 2y ago

America has more ultra rich people and high income earners. But if you’re poor and have an easily treatable illness, say type 1 diabetes, you’ll die begging for insulin. It’s very easy to lose everything within a few months. You get sick, lose your job, your entire family loses health insurance. We have this stupid prosperity gospel idea which conversely means poverty is your fault. Can’t afford medicine for your kids, well I guess it’s their fault for having a loser dad. Taxes are still absurdly high in America for what you actually receive. Have any serious medical issues and you’ll be spending thousands upon thousands per month on top of 600 to 700$ for essentially useless health insurance. We’re also a fear based society. When I visited London it’s perfectly normal to see single women waiting for the bus at 2am or whatever. Here as a grown man I got freaked out when I was approached by a stranger around 7pm. Was he going to rob me ? He actually was a local politician passing out flyers , but we live in paranoia land. America is closer to a developing country in both medical care and violent crime. I know I’d rather raise a family in Berlin than almost any American city.

vel0city 2y ago
> We’re also a fear based society. When I visited London it’s perfectly normal to see single women waiting for the bus at 2am or whatever. Here as a grown man I got freaked out when I was approached by a stranger around 7pm. Was he going to rob me ? > He actually was a local politician passing out flyers, but we live in paranoia land. Sounds like you're a part of the paranoia. Violent crime happens mostly in small pockets but quite densely where it happens. But generally, most places are perfectly safe. I've had so many experiences of telling friends I'm off to walk the dog around midnight or whatever and I get responses like "oh is that safe?" Of course it is! I do it all the time. People seriously think if you walk outside at night nearly anywhere, you're likely to be assaulted despite never having such a thing happen to anyone they know. So many people are scared to ride public transit thinking "what if I'm attacked?!" And yet hopping in their car is the least safe thing they'll do that day with over 100 people dying in car accidents every day. You're way more likely to die a painful death in that car than you are riding the bus, and yet people question if it's safe to ride transit.

pseudocomposer 2y ago

The thing about being “poor” in Europe is, you can be “poor” your entire life by American standards of income/assets, but still never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans cannot.

lurk2 2y ago
> Most Americans cannot. You have no idea what you’re talking about and there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making. The only two metrics Europeans win out on is life expectancy (by around 4 years) and (narrowly) on home ownership rate (around 5 percentage points higher in Europe). Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric.
- dagw 2y ago
  there is no statistical basis to the claims you are making Are you really arguing that Americans (and especially Americans below the median) don't have higher levels of medical debt, higher rates of medical bankruptcy, and get/take less vacation than Europeans.
  - lurk2 2y ago
    Those were not the claims being made. The claim was that: > Most Americans cannot: Never take on medical debt, travel more than a month out of the year, have a couple kids and educate them in good schools, and retire. Most Americans do these things, with the possible exception of month-long vacations.
- ponector 2y ago
  > Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier than Europeans by every other metric. $1.21 trillion in credit card debt, $1.66 trillion in car loans and $1.6 trillion in federal student loans - yes, Americans are overwhelmingly wealthier.
  - 2y ago