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Thanks for the feedback! I'd like to comment on some points: - There seems to be some confusion in relation to warnings. There are two types of warnings, compi

Thanks for the feedback! I'd like to comment on some points: - There seems to be some confusion in relation to warnings. There are two types of warnings, compile-time warnings and runtime warnings. Compile-time warnings are emitted during compilation time and therefore should not affect test runs, aka, when you run code. Runtime warnings can be captured during tests, using `ExUnit.CaptureIO`. Deprecating modules and functions are compile-time warnings - Indeed you need to enable `--warnings-as-errors` to halt compilation due to warnings in CI. Our philosophy here is to emit compilation warnings instead of compilation errors whenever possible, so you can run, debug, and test your code, instead of forcing your code to be pristine while you are still working on it. The focus here is precisely to provide a better developer experience. Then if you do want them to fail upfront, as in CI, you pass the flag - "when doing umbrella tests on non compiled code seed influences order of compilation" - I am not sure what this means, sorry. Can you expand? But generally speaking our test framework randomizes test order by default, because you should not depend on order between tests or have dependencies between test files - "dependency compilation is not parallelized" - when a dependency is compiled, the files in a dependency are parallelized, but not the dependencies themselves, so I'd very surprised if it only used 10% CPU before. In any case, a PR adding this feature was merged this week: https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/pull/14340 https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/pull/14340. In my machine, compiling a project like Livebook uses 350% CPU without the flag above (showing some parallelism), and with the flag above set to 4, it is about 800% (250% + 250% + 150% + 150%). Note my machine has 8 performance cores and I don't get additional gains beyond 4 partitions - "compilation process can break and Elixir isn’t aware that it was interrupted" - our tooling has code to deal precisely with this: https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809be7954a6ef0b540b2ceb49e/lib/mix/lib/mix/compilers/elixir.ex#L950-L985 https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809.... If it still happens, it is a bug and must be reported, so we can fix it - "try checking if you can dynamically add children to a Supervisor" - the top 4 results for "dynamically add children to a Supervisor in elixir" in Google and Ecosia lead to correct answers in the ElixirForum, StackOverflow, and the documentation. For completeness, I have also asked Claude, which gave a perfect answer (IMO): https://claude.ai/share/9d1e2ad4-2e43-4c32-a293-6fff32dd7001 https://claude.ai/share/9d1e2ad4-2e43-4c32-a293-6fff32dd7001 - "there isn’t even a link to „open newest”" - this has been added to ExDoc, here is one example: https://hexdocs.pm/req/0.5.9/readme.html https://hexdocs.pm/req/0.5.9/readme.html - but note we have always listed the versions in the sidebar - "sidebar with new ExDocs break for some reason so there is no navigation" - please give an example, as this would be a bug and should be fixed, and I am not aware of any reports at the moment. Also note docs are available in the terminal, both inside `iex` or by doing `mix help SomeModule`

conradfr 2y ago
Great, I hope the new "go to latest" will help Google/DDG/etc link to this instead of a random version of whatever module you look for.
xlii 2y ago
Hey Jose, thanks for your comment. I actually wanted you to notice, because Elixir is still one of the best languages out there (and BEAM is the best), but developer experience IMO is deteriorating over the years. It's not a problem for people who are completely immersed and can remember most of the guidelines/policies/idiosyncracies. Getting new people on board or even following guildeilnes is hard when work process is interrupted. Some paper cuts are brought on Elixir Forums but I've seen them evaluated as not providing enough benefit to developers or being against design - and I found them through trying to solve very similar problem. I like some changes in devex direction (e.g. recent LSP initiative), yet I think it's lagging to other languages. I often get cut by various - often small things - but there are so many. Disappointed is amplified by good experience with other (I'll give it to them - more popular or better funded) languages. Yet given very static download count of Jason on Hex I think that rarely new projects are started in Elixir, while Erlang's popularity is slowly but visibly growing, so I don't think I'm alone in my perception. I will try to respond succintly to followup to not blow up already large text, so let me know if you'd like more info. https://imgur.com/a/iWbTEUf https://imgur.com/a/iWbTEUf I've uploaded some weirdness I experienced in recent weeks/months. > (ExDocs breaking) ... please give an example In screenshot - happened with Chromium,Safari and Firefox ~6 months ago. Often with OTEL libraries. Today I can't reproduce, but I also have DNS blackholing enabled. Maybe it's fixed or maybe that was analytics breaking on me. > WRT: checking if you can dynamically add children to a Supervisor Our case was bug caused by change of Dynamic to Normal (we had an app that would be replace in specific context, but otherwise should be supervised as usual). After that we started observing comm channel blocks due to dead connections - it was 77 1/2 bug: Line 77 shut down the child and Line 78 deleted the child, in 77 1/2 Supervisor restarted the child so it couldn't be deleted anymore - and it was able to pick some comm channels. It's not hard to fix, but one has to know that. I don't like "not recommended", as many things aren't recommended but we do it given circumstances. It's better to know the difference and being able to make decision by oneself. > Also note docs are available in the terminal, both inside `iex` or by doing `mix help SomeModule` `mix help Ecto` shows missing task, so I suppose it's a typo (or something I don't have). Help in `iex` (and probably `iex -S mix`) requires dependency download, build, maybe rebuild and some flag and env manipulation (so that app doesn't start entirely) and I hope I started it before breaking compilation because otherwise it won't. Yes, it's there - I agree, but it takes energy to use. > ...but note we have always listed the versions in the sidebar I know, however as text moves places the worst possible example of it is like: Search for A - open - notice wrong version - check which one I should be using in code - change to version B in sidebar - not linked, got bounced to home page - search in ExDocs - nothing found (searchbox often fails to return results, see screenshot) - get back to search engine - type exactly version and query - click there. When it repeats multiple time it starts to become unavoidable busywork. > - "compilation process can break and Elixir isn't aware that it was interrupted" - our tooling has code to deal precisely with this: [https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809... https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809...](https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809be7954a6ef0b540b2ceb49e/lib/mix/lib/mix/compilers/elixir.ex#L950-L985 https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809...). If it still happens, it is a bug and must be reported, so we can fix it I'm 99% sure that it's a result of circular dependencies and maybe one pass fails but then the other starts overwriting or something. But could also be something in compilation pipeline (we have extra steps). I wish there was something like "mix elixir_checks.compile_consistency" (with a flag to send a bug report). Right now feeling a bug means: isolating and justifying it. It takes energy, especially when codebase is complex, big and ridden with prior decisions. I considered doing that, but I think environment is defensive and I'm easy person to pull into fights, but don't enjoy them. > "dependency compilation is not parallelized" I made a mental shortcut - i.e it's using only one core right now, and it's taking approx. 2-3 minutes. Looks like PR would resolve it, but not sure when we'll be able to use it. > when doing umbrella tests on non compiled code seed influences order of compilation In short (I don't know cause) if I run `mix test` from umbrella I'm seeing different compilation order on applications and their dependencies (if I hadn't compiled those before). Those applications aren't guaranteed to be in homogenous dependency state (in fact when I'm looking for dependencies in `mix.exs` I can see popular libraries spread across 3-4 different major versions). Unlucky run happens and consensus is "don't debug `rm -fr _build`). > Our philosophy here is to emit compilation warnings instead of compilation errors whenever possible, so you can run, debug, and test your code, instead of forcing your code to be pristine while you are still working on it. This is big pain point for me. I care about some warnings, but not for others (e.g. in libraries that ale planned to be dropped ). I also can't enable those I'd like (deprecated - so my colleagues don't use something we want to sunset in root or dreaded circular dependencies). I solved this by complex check chain and custom filters, but in "competition" I get those out of the box. I won't say that Elixir is worse technology it's just... I know others which are better (but not BEAM, BEAM is THE BEST)

conradfr 2y ago

Great, I hope the new "go to latest" will help Google/DDG/etc link to this instead of a random version of whatever module you look for.

xlii 2y ago

Hey Jose, thanks for your comment. I actually wanted you to notice, because Elixir is still one of the best languages out there (and BEAM is the best), but developer experience IMO is deteriorating over the years. It's not a problem for people who are completely immersed and can remember most of the guidelines/policies/idiosyncracies. Getting new people on board or even following guildeilnes is hard when work process is interrupted. Some paper cuts are brought on Elixir Forums but I've seen them evaluated as not providing enough benefit to developers or being against design - and I found them through trying to solve very similar problem. I like some changes in devex direction (e.g. recent LSP initiative), yet I think it's lagging to other languages. I often get cut by various - often small things - but there are so many. Disappointed is amplified by good experience with other (I'll give it to them - more popular or better funded) languages. Yet given very static download count of Jason on Hex I think that rarely new projects are started in Elixir, while Erlang's popularity is slowly but visibly growing, so I don't think I'm alone in my perception. I will try to respond succintly to followup to not blow up already large text, so let me know if you'd like more info. https://imgur.com/a/iWbTEUf https://imgur.com/a/iWbTEUf I've uploaded some weirdness I experienced in recent weeks/months. > (ExDocs breaking) ... please give an example In screenshot - happened with Chromium,Safari and Firefox ~6 months ago. Often with OTEL libraries. Today I can't reproduce, but I also have DNS blackholing enabled. Maybe it's fixed or maybe that was analytics breaking on me. > WRT: checking if you can dynamically add children to a Supervisor Our case was bug caused by change of Dynamic to Normal (we had an app that would be replace in specific context, but otherwise should be supervised as usual). After that we started observing comm channel blocks due to dead connections - it was 77 1/2 bug: Line 77 shut down the child and Line 78 deleted the child, in 77 1/2 Supervisor restarted the child so it couldn't be deleted anymore - and it was able to pick some comm channels. It's not hard to fix, but one has to know that. I don't like "not recommended", as many things aren't recommended but we do it given circumstances. It's better to know the difference and being able to make decision by oneself. > Also note docs are available in the terminal, both inside `iex` or by doing `mix help SomeModule` `mix help Ecto` shows missing task, so I suppose it's a typo (or something I don't have). Help in `iex` (and probably `iex -S mix`) requires dependency download, build, maybe rebuild and some flag and env manipulation (so that app doesn't start entirely) and I hope I started it before breaking compilation because otherwise it won't. Yes, it's there - I agree, but it takes energy to use. > ...but note we have always listed the versions in the sidebar I know, however as text moves places the worst possible example of it is like: Search for A - open - notice wrong version - check which one I should be using in code - change to version B in sidebar - not linked, got bounced to home page - search in ExDocs - nothing found (searchbox often fails to return results, see screenshot) - get back to search engine - type exactly version and query - click there. When it repeats multiple time it starts to become unavoidable busywork. > - "compilation process can break and Elixir isn't aware that it was interrupted" - our tooling has code to deal precisely with this: [https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809... https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809...](https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809be7954a6ef0b540b2ceb49e/lib/mix/lib/mix/compilers/elixir.ex#L950-L985 https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/c5c87a661efac6809...). If it still happens, it is a bug and must be reported, so we can fix it I'm 99% sure that it's a result of circular dependencies and maybe one pass fails but then the other starts overwriting or something. But could also be something in compilation pipeline (we have extra steps). I wish there was something like "mix elixir_checks.compile_consistency" (with a flag to send a bug report). Right now feeling a bug means: isolating and justifying it. It takes energy, especially when codebase is complex, big and ridden with prior decisions. I considered doing that, but I think environment is defensive and I'm easy person to pull into fights, but don't enjoy them. > "dependency compilation is not parallelized" I made a mental shortcut - i.e it's using only one core right now, and it's taking approx. 2-3 minutes. Looks like PR would resolve it, but not sure when we'll be able to use it. > when doing umbrella tests on non compiled code seed influences order of compilation In short (I don't know cause) if I run `mix test` from umbrella I'm seeing different compilation order on applications and their dependencies (if I hadn't compiled those before). Those applications aren't guaranteed to be in homogenous dependency state (in fact when I'm looking for dependencies in `mix.exs` I can see popular libraries spread across 3-4 different major versions). Unlucky run happens and consensus is "don't debug `rm -fr _build`). > Our philosophy here is to emit compilation warnings instead of compilation errors whenever possible, so you can run, debug, and test your code, instead of forcing your code to be pristine while you are still working on it. This is big pain point for me. I care about some warnings, but not for others (e.g. in libraries that ale planned to be dropped ). I also can't enable those I'd like (deprecated - so my colleagues don't use something we want to sunset in root or dreaded circular dependencies). I solved this by complex check chain and custom filters, but in "competition" I get those out of the box. I won't say that Elixir is worse technology it's just... I know others which are better (but not BEAM, BEAM is THE BEST)