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"the work" she was doing was domestic chores? Like "you can live for free in this room as long as you keep the house clean". It's not like she went there to w

by ffsm8 2y ago

"the work" she was doing was domestic chores? Like "you can live for free in this room as long as you keep the house clean". It's not like she went there to work, she just did chores Frankly, you're the one that miss characterizing her.

rahimnathwani 2y ago
What is special about the nature of the work (domestic chores)? Would you see things differently if she were working as a barista or doing a bit of coding in return for accommodation? If so, why? When you say "It's not like she went there to work, she just did chores" you seem to imply that people come to the US because they want to work. They come for various reasons, and work is a thing that's necessary for most people, to achieve other ends. For this woman, working during her vacation was a means to fund her travels. She didn't come to the US with work as her primary purpose, but I'm assuming the work was integral to her plan because otherwise accommodation would be expensive.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  Yes, because calling an obligation to do chores "work" is massively stretching the definition of the term "work". You can be a full-time employee whose only job is doing chores, but that's not what's described here, it's just doing (some of ) the household chores for a single house/family which you're living with There is even a term for it, though the practice has been falling out of fashion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_pair https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_pair To be clear, I'm not arguing that this practice is in line with the tourist visa. I'm saying that calling that work is not what most people would understand under that term. And she most likely wasn't even aware that this (probably) wasn't permissable. My issue is your miss characterization of her doing this knowing that it's not allowed. Young people usually aren't very informed, and you're pushing a narrative of her going there for gainful employment, when she's likely just doing this to experience life in another culture for a few months.
  - figassis 2y ago
    The government’s definition of work needs to be broad enough to keep people from gaming it. If she had to “work” to sustain her life, that should count as work in any definition, whether this is official employment or not. Any exchange of your time or skills for any type of benefit is work. Even if you don’t benefit. I guess if someone enslaves you while on a tourist visa, that is still work.
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    There is even a term for it, though the practice has been falling out of fashion Yes, and if you google that term and append 'visa', you'll see that, to be an au pair in the USA: - you need a J-1 visa: https://j1visa.state.gov/programs/au-pair https://j1visa.state.gov/programs/au-pair, and - you must to be 18 to 26 years old, and when she's likely just doing this to experience life in another culture for a few months Most people choose to work so that they have a roof over their heads in the place that they want to be, whether they intend to be there permanently or not.
    - ffsm8 2y ago
      Did you skip over half my comment? I said that it probably wasn't permissable under the tourist visa (it depends entirely on what the au pair relationship was). The issue was never the deportation, it was her treatment during this process. (And the grandparents miss characterization of her motivations) To address your final remark: The idea of au pair was to grow as a person during their formative years, it's something upper middle class teenagers/young adults did, which is also why theyre usually not a illegal immigration risk, because they've already got plenty of privileges at home. You seem to think it's something people did go move up in the world, which this never was - at least I've never met anyone doing it with the desire to get a good job. They all just wanted to meet people, experience life and broaden their horizon. Or stated less charitably: they wanted to escape their parents home but didn't yet know what they wanted to do with their lives. That's not really a problem people trying to move up in the world have. But there is a reason why au pair isn't really done anymore, and it's partly because a lot of hosts saw the guests as cheap labor, which is why you need a work visa nowadays.
- eesmith 2y ago
  The question is one of amount, not nature. AirB&B hosts may say you need to clean up afterwards, including sweeping up and even putting the sheets into the washing machine. That's definitely a domestic chore, yes? You pay less for the room in exchange for some unpaid domestic labor. Should that result in detention? If I were a French citizen and had a US friend online who offered me a place to stay during my visit who said "and while you're here you need to help me learn Python generators" - should that result in my detention? I have been paid to teach Python courses in several countries. Or, suppose my bestie is 8 months pregnant, and now lives in NYC instead of Paris. I offer to come over to help with the last month and first two months of the baby. I'll also use her place as a home base while exploring the city. That's definitely domestic labor. Do you think it should be prohibited and/or result in detention? I assure you that cases like this happen a lot.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    The question is one of amount, not nature. You're describing staying with family or friends, and helping out as part of being a good guest or friend or family member. She made a deal with strangers for exchange of value. There's a difference in nature. (You also gave the AirBNB example. For that case, just watch the direction of money flow.)
    - eesmith 2y ago
      Your argument seems to have been that any domestic work requires a work visa. Is your argument now that if you do domestic work for a friend then it doesn't count as work? How well do you need to know someone before they are no longer a stranger? You seems to suggest that since "work was integral to her plan", then if work was not integral to her plan, for example, if she could afford to pay for a hotel every night, but wanted the experience of living with an American family, including helping with domestic chores, then you think that sort of unpaid domestic labor would be okay? I ask because I'm struggling to understand why you emphasize the nature of the work, when you seem to think that identical domestic work for other reasons is okay.
- Gud 2y ago
  Frankly we live in a world of grey areas. Open the door for someone? Boom! Deportation! That a person is deported for cleaning around the house on a tourist visa is ridiculous. But unfortunately, many/most countries have ridiculous visa rules. And even more unfortunately, we live in a time were people enforcing these rules have lost all common sense.
ranger_danger 2y ago
In this case, legally, household chores (especially in exchange for accommodations) may still count as work and be technically disallowed by their visa. This is not uncommon and is the case in many other countries as well. If you ever watch those border security shows, they often show people having visas denied for exactly the same reason, and whether it's the US or other places like Australia and UK.

by ffsm8 2y ago

rahimnathwani 2y ago

What is special about the nature of the work (domestic chores)? Would you see things differently if she were working as a barista or doing a bit of coding in return for accommodation? If so, why? When you say "It's not like she went there to work, she just did chores" you seem to imply that people come to the US because they want to work. They come for various reasons, and work is a thing that's necessary for most people, to achieve other ends. For this woman, working during her vacation was a means to fund her travels. She didn't come to the US with work as her primary purpose, but I'm assuming the work was integral to her plan because otherwise accommodation would be expensive.

ffsm8 2y ago
Yes, because calling an obligation to do chores "work" is massively stretching the definition of the term "work". You can be a full-time employee whose only job is doing chores, but that's not what's described here, it's just doing (some of ) the household chores for a single house/family which you're living with There is even a term for it, though the practice has been falling out of fashion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_pair https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_pair To be clear, I'm not arguing that this practice is in line with the tourist visa. I'm saying that calling that work is not what most people would understand under that term. And she most likely wasn't even aware that this (probably) wasn't permissable. My issue is your miss characterization of her doing this knowing that it's not allowed. Young people usually aren't very informed, and you're pushing a narrative of her going there for gainful employment, when she's likely just doing this to experience life in another culture for a few months.
- figassis 2y ago
  The government’s definition of work needs to be broad enough to keep people from gaming it. If she had to “work” to sustain her life, that should count as work in any definition, whether this is official employment or not. Any exchange of your time or skills for any type of benefit is work. Even if you don’t benefit. I guess if someone enslaves you while on a tourist visa, that is still work.
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  There is even a term for it, though the practice has been falling out of fashion Yes, and if you google that term and append 'visa', you'll see that, to be an au pair in the USA: - you need a J-1 visa: https://j1visa.state.gov/programs/au-pair https://j1visa.state.gov/programs/au-pair, and - you must to be 18 to 26 years old, and when she's likely just doing this to experience life in another culture for a few months Most people choose to work so that they have a roof over their heads in the place that they want to be, whether they intend to be there permanently or not.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    Did you skip over half my comment? I said that it probably wasn't permissable under the tourist visa (it depends entirely on what the au pair relationship was). The issue was never the deportation, it was her treatment during this process. (And the grandparents miss characterization of her motivations) To address your final remark: The idea of au pair was to grow as a person during their formative years, it's something upper middle class teenagers/young adults did, which is also why theyre usually not a illegal immigration risk, because they've already got plenty of privileges at home. You seem to think it's something people did go move up in the world, which this never was - at least I've never met anyone doing it with the desire to get a good job. They all just wanted to meet people, experience life and broaden their horizon. Or stated less charitably: they wanted to escape their parents home but didn't yet know what they wanted to do with their lives. That's not really a problem people trying to move up in the world have. But there is a reason why au pair isn't really done anymore, and it's partly because a lot of hosts saw the guests as cheap labor, which is why you need a work visa nowadays.
eesmith 2y ago
The question is one of amount, not nature. AirB&B hosts may say you need to clean up afterwards, including sweeping up and even putting the sheets into the washing machine. That's definitely a domestic chore, yes? You pay less for the room in exchange for some unpaid domestic labor. Should that result in detention? If I were a French citizen and had a US friend online who offered me a place to stay during my visit who said "and while you're here you need to help me learn Python generators" - should that result in my detention? I have been paid to teach Python courses in several countries. Or, suppose my bestie is 8 months pregnant, and now lives in NYC instead of Paris. I offer to come over to help with the last month and first two months of the baby. I'll also use her place as a home base while exploring the city. That's definitely domestic labor. Do you think it should be prohibited and/or result in detention? I assure you that cases like this happen a lot.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  The question is one of amount, not nature. You're describing staying with family or friends, and helping out as part of being a good guest or friend or family member. She made a deal with strangers for exchange of value. There's a difference in nature. (You also gave the AirBNB example. For that case, just watch the direction of money flow.)
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Your argument seems to have been that any domestic work requires a work visa. Is your argument now that if you do domestic work for a friend then it doesn't count as work? How well do you need to know someone before they are no longer a stranger? You seems to suggest that since "work was integral to her plan", then if work was not integral to her plan, for example, if she could afford to pay for a hotel every night, but wanted the experience of living with an American family, including helping with domestic chores, then you think that sort of unpaid domestic labor would be okay? I ask because I'm struggling to understand why you emphasize the nature of the work, when you seem to think that identical domestic work for other reasons is okay.
Gud 2y ago
Frankly we live in a world of grey areas. Open the door for someone? Boom! Deportation! That a person is deported for cleaning around the house on a tourist visa is ridiculous. But unfortunately, many/most countries have ridiculous visa rules. And even more unfortunately, we live in a time were people enforcing these rules have lost all common sense.

ranger_danger 2y ago

In this case, legally, household chores (especially in exchange for accommodations) may still count as work and be technically disallowed by their visa. This is not uncommon and is the case in many other countries as well. If you ever watch those border security shows, they often show people having visas denied for exactly the same reason, and whether it's the US or other places like Australia and UK.