4 ms·

I tend to think that students preferring internet trash over schooling is more an indictment of the state of schooling than internet trash. Of course, that refl

I tend to think that students preferring internet trash over schooling is more an indictment of the state of schooling than internet trash. Of course, that reflects on the kinds of worker units society is directed to produce as well, and their alignment with the economy as it actually exists and works.

mixmastamyk 2y ago
If I'd had handheld toys in class as a child, and no one stopped me from using them... ? Think Gameboy, or Sony Watchman w/ MTV. Well, no school subject could have competed with that. Certainly not those that require a bit of work.
- aeblyve 2y ago
  Even if this is true, the condition can go as far back as your childhood as well. When it is clear that the organism should be doing something, it does it. If it is somehow not clear, it is likely just not necessary. A significant confounding factor is the lack of awareness of the productive forces. The average suburban school kid has relatively little idea of how the world works and what workers actually do, and why, in part due to a culture of corporate secrecy. "No phones in school" can be a stopgap but really produces a dead end arms-race situation, even if it worked for a time. The only solution is to make school genuinely interesting and relevant. Until institutionalized education is no longer interesting and relevant on the face of it.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Yep, one of my favorite tradesmen is Larry Haun. He started carrying tools for carpenters for pay as a young kid -- which today would be illegal. Imagine being in school and learning math and science in the context of how it tied into building a house . Suddenly the majority of it is useful. Perhaps the problem is in part kids aren't economically 'exploited' enough so they have basically nill solidifying the utility of their schooling.
    - aeblyve 2y ago
      Spot on.
      - mixmastamyk 2y ago
        I’d like to see more of this as well, but it’s not practical/economical for most subjects. Construction + arithmetic is straightforward, but imagine kids huddled over a word processor while a writer hammers out a manuscript, or even corporate memo.
        ty6853 2y ago
        Arithmetic is sufficient math for at least half of workers for the foreseeable future. Realistically if you can read/write, do arithmetic, show up on time, follow orders, and put in effort you can succeed in most trades.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > The average suburban school kid has relatively little idea of how the world works and what workers actually do, and why, in part due to a culture of corporate secrecy. What workers actually do is easy to find out. The problem is rather: for quite a lot of jobs, as a school kid, you'd rather come to the conclusion that if this is what life is about, you should rather commit suicide as soon as possible. Similarly, understanding how the world works, gives you an insane hate for a lot of people (i.e. makes you a misanthropist). Beginning from politicians, ending with basically everybody (you get to understand that the (irrational and clearly not in their long-term self-interest) behaviour of many people around you causes perverse incentives for the markets). Are these really the lessons that children should get? Yes, I am very black-pilld.
II2II 2y ago
I don't think you can draw that conclusion. With respect to Internet trash, the only real metrics are (along the lines of): how many eyes can you captivate, and how long can you keep them captive. There is no real incentive to encourage people to think about what they are viewing, retain what they are viewing, or even apply what they are viewing. If anything, these thing are disincentivized. At the very least, you don't want people to realize they are viewing trash (otherwise many would go elsewhere, and quality content takes more effort to produe). You also run the risk of the audience not wanting to put in the effort, and shifting to something easier. That said, my initial response when I read "When you are standing in front of them trying to teach, they’re vacant" was, "back in my day, we had to do that without the benefits of smartphones." The whole article struck me as the type of ramblings we have heard from educators for millenia.
- aeblyve 2y ago
  I think this view is not appreciative of the power of innate animal intelligence applied to the direct world as superior to abstract advertising models. The latter only stands a chance when the first is not functioning properly.
sethammons 2y ago
I tend to think that kids preferring candy and preprocessed trash over vegetables is more an indictment of the state of seasonings than candy and preprocessed trash. Of course, that reflects on the kinds of worker units society is directed to produce as well, and their alignment with the economy as it actually exists and works.
- aeblyve 2y ago
  This is not as ironic as you think if you learn about plant defense chemicals in vegetables. The preference for something with usable sucrose over a pile of carcinogens and anti nutrients in undercooked leafy greens is understandable.
  - sethammons 2y ago
    for sure; leafy greens don't "want" to be eaten. "Eat your veggies" is very understandable though. And the lack of seasoning and preparation is a big problem for why kids don't like their veggies. Soggy mash from the microwave with no salt? No thanks. Veggies prepared well is great. So is education. Most of public school is simply mass market soggy, saltless, microwave veggie plates.

mixmastamyk 2y ago

If I'd had handheld toys in class as a child, and no one stopped me from using them... ? Think Gameboy, or Sony Watchman w/ MTV. Well, no school subject could have competed with that. Certainly not those that require a bit of work.

aeblyve 2y ago
Even if this is true, the condition can go as far back as your childhood as well. When it is clear that the organism should be doing something, it does it. If it is somehow not clear, it is likely just not necessary. A significant confounding factor is the lack of awareness of the productive forces. The average suburban school kid has relatively little idea of how the world works and what workers actually do, and why, in part due to a culture of corporate secrecy. "No phones in school" can be a stopgap but really produces a dead end arms-race situation, even if it worked for a time. The only solution is to make school genuinely interesting and relevant. Until institutionalized education is no longer interesting and relevant on the face of it.
- ty6853 2y ago
  Yep, one of my favorite tradesmen is Larry Haun. He started carrying tools for carpenters for pay as a young kid -- which today would be illegal. Imagine being in school and learning math and science in the context of how it tied into building a house . Suddenly the majority of it is useful. Perhaps the problem is in part kids aren't economically 'exploited' enough so they have basically nill solidifying the utility of their schooling.
  - aeblyve 2y ago
    Spot on.
    - mixmastamyk 2y ago
      I’d like to see more of this as well, but it’s not practical/economical for most subjects. Construction + arithmetic is straightforward, but imagine kids huddled over a word processor while a writer hammers out a manuscript, or even corporate memo.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        Arithmetic is sufficient math for at least half of workers for the foreseeable future. Realistically if you can read/write, do arithmetic, show up on time, follow orders, and put in effort you can succeed in most trades.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > The average suburban school kid has relatively little idea of how the world works and what workers actually do, and why, in part due to a culture of corporate secrecy. What workers actually do is easy to find out. The problem is rather: for quite a lot of jobs, as a school kid, you'd rather come to the conclusion that if this is what life is about, you should rather commit suicide as soon as possible. Similarly, understanding how the world works, gives you an insane hate for a lot of people (i.e. makes you a misanthropist). Beginning from politicians, ending with basically everybody (you get to understand that the (irrational and clearly not in their long-term self-interest) behaviour of many people around you causes perverse incentives for the markets). Are these really the lessons that children should get? Yes, I am very black-pilld.

II2II 2y ago

I don't think you can draw that conclusion. With respect to Internet trash, the only real metrics are (along the lines of): how many eyes can you captivate, and how long can you keep them captive. There is no real incentive to encourage people to think about what they are viewing, retain what they are viewing, or even apply what they are viewing. If anything, these thing are disincentivized. At the very least, you don't want people to realize they are viewing trash (otherwise many would go elsewhere, and quality content takes more effort to produe). You also run the risk of the audience not wanting to put in the effort, and shifting to something easier. That said, my initial response when I read "When you are standing in front of them trying to teach, they’re vacant" was, "back in my day, we had to do that without the benefits of smartphones." The whole article struck me as the type of ramblings we have heard from educators for millenia.

aeblyve 2y ago
I think this view is not appreciative of the power of innate animal intelligence applied to the direct world as superior to abstract advertising models. The latter only stands a chance when the first is not functioning properly.

sethammons 2y ago

I tend to think that kids preferring candy and preprocessed trash over vegetables is more an indictment of the state of seasonings than candy and preprocessed trash. Of course, that reflects on the kinds of worker units society is directed to produce as well, and their alignment with the economy as it actually exists and works.

aeblyve 2y ago
This is not as ironic as you think if you learn about plant defense chemicals in vegetables. The preference for something with usable sucrose over a pile of carcinogens and anti nutrients in undercooked leafy greens is understandable.
- sethammons 2y ago
  for sure; leafy greens don't "want" to be eaten. "Eat your veggies" is very understandable though. And the lack of seasoning and preparation is a big problem for why kids don't like their veggies. Soggy mash from the microwave with no salt? No thanks. Veggies prepared well is great. So is education. Most of public school is simply mass market soggy, saltless, microwave veggie plates.