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Man I don’t know. Schools can be genuinely awful. Easily half of the educational value I received during my school hours was found while messing around on my la

Man I don’t know. Schools can be genuinely awful. Easily half of the educational value I received during my school hours was found while messing around on my laptop instead of paying attention. I’m sure I’m a rare case there, but these devices were my only escape from a dull, incompetent education system.

ty6853 2y ago
The customers are captive (pay or sheriff with guns show up to toss your ass out), the employer is spending OPM (largely funded to administration or special interest segments or overhead), and the student consuming has essentially no say since his parents have no money left to choose somewhere else after paying already for the public school. What could possibly go wrong where the only person with any real choice is an administrator who doesn't bear the cost or benefit of his own actions? The incentives could hardly be more misaligned.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  Precisely. I moved around quite a bit as a kid, so I got a more wholistic picture of the public education system than most. I’m not sure I met a single teacher that wasn’t overworked. In the richer areas teachers typically wanted to teach; in the poorer areas even that often wasn’t true (An issue of filtering and work environment, not a personal failing thing). I once had a history teacher who only showed movies for the entire year I had her. With us placated, she’d go lounge in the corner. But even the teachers who gave a damn couldn’t do much with the absurd ratios; it was impressive they even managed to keep kids in their seats and fights from breaking out. Any time the instinct to further police kids in schools arises, I get defensive. I know what that environment is like for the kids in it, and anyone would look for an escape while trapped in there. Schools right now function as weird little child prisons, somewhere to put kids while their parents (those who aren’t rich enough to do otherwise) go to work. If the schools aren’t gonna get any better (certainly not under this administration), then why bother taking away the coping mechanisms people have available?
  - jmye 2y ago
    > then why bother taking away the coping mechanisms people have available? If the kids won’t learn anyways, we might as well give them their dopamine and depression machines so they can really double down on not learning? Calling schools prisons? Sorry, this is ridiculous. Learning isn’t always fun and it’s unfortunate that, as a child, you were asked to do things that weren’t 100% the most fun thing you could be doing at any given time, but it turns out playing video games all day has no value. It turns out, simply being a student with some anecdata gives one no insight into actual teaching. This just reads as angsty teenage frustration.
    - floren 2y ago
      > This just reads as angsty teenage frustration. And it's a hacker news standby. Any discussion of schools will have at least one commenter calling them prisons.
      - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        I regret this because it makes for such an easy attack. Not an entirely unjustified comparison though.
        jmye 2y ago
        It is entirely unjustified. Schools are nothing like prison.
        BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        This is sometimes too dramatic but does alright: https://www.historytools.org/school/why-do-schools-look-like-prisons-an-expert-analysis-on-a-troubling-trend https://www.historytools.org/school/why-do-schools-look-like... >During the 19th century Industrial Revolution, reformers explicitly modeled public schools after factories to habituate youth to regimented workplace environments. >Cell-like classrooms with regimented rows of desks >Rigid schedules and rules to control movement >Obedience to authority figures >Conformity and standardization >In the 20th century, disciplinary issues led architects to also incorporate prison elements >Enclosing perimeter fences up to 10 feet high >Locked or monitored gates limiting entrance/exit >Surveillance cameras blanketing hallways and grounds >Metal detectors >Mesh covered windows preventing exit attempts >Sparse and durable interior materials resistant to damage >Currently over 17% of schools possess 10 or more of these. Their prevalence continues rising yearly. The article goes on but this should hopefully be illustrative of my point.
protocolture 2y ago
Nah I agree 100%. My computer studies teacher would teach us about ergonomics and warcraft. Whereas, exploiting the school systems taught me far more. Heck we had VB6 compilers installed on school systems, but got maybe 1 week of curriculum over 3 years. However they were very good for building my first nefarious apps. Theres an expectation by many students that you can just meet all class obligations and receive a proper education. But really, class metrics are for ass covering. You need to use that time, when the world isnt trying to squeeze you for labor, to actually learn things.

ty6853 2y ago

The customers are captive (pay or sheriff with guns show up to toss your ass out), the employer is spending OPM (largely funded to administration or special interest segments or overhead), and the student consuming has essentially no say since his parents have no money left to choose somewhere else after paying already for the public school. What could possibly go wrong where the only person with any real choice is an administrator who doesn't bear the cost or benefit of his own actions? The incentives could hardly be more misaligned.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Precisely. I moved around quite a bit as a kid, so I got a more wholistic picture of the public education system than most. I’m not sure I met a single teacher that wasn’t overworked. In the richer areas teachers typically wanted to teach; in the poorer areas even that often wasn’t true (An issue of filtering and work environment, not a personal failing thing). I once had a history teacher who only showed movies for the entire year I had her. With us placated, she’d go lounge in the corner. But even the teachers who gave a damn couldn’t do much with the absurd ratios; it was impressive they even managed to keep kids in their seats and fights from breaking out. Any time the instinct to further police kids in schools arises, I get defensive. I know what that environment is like for the kids in it, and anyone would look for an escape while trapped in there. Schools right now function as weird little child prisons, somewhere to put kids while their parents (those who aren’t rich enough to do otherwise) go to work. If the schools aren’t gonna get any better (certainly not under this administration), then why bother taking away the coping mechanisms people have available?
- jmye 2y ago
  > then why bother taking away the coping mechanisms people have available? If the kids won’t learn anyways, we might as well give them their dopamine and depression machines so they can really double down on not learning? Calling schools prisons? Sorry, this is ridiculous. Learning isn’t always fun and it’s unfortunate that, as a child, you were asked to do things that weren’t 100% the most fun thing you could be doing at any given time, but it turns out playing video games all day has no value. It turns out, simply being a student with some anecdata gives one no insight into actual teaching. This just reads as angsty teenage frustration.
  - floren 2y ago
    > This just reads as angsty teenage frustration. And it's a hacker news standby. Any discussion of schools will have at least one commenter calling them prisons.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
      I regret this because it makes for such an easy attack. Not an entirely unjustified comparison though.
      - jmye 2y ago
        It is entirely unjustified. Schools are nothing like prison.
        BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        This is sometimes too dramatic but does alright: https://www.historytools.org/school/why-do-schools-look-like-prisons-an-expert-analysis-on-a-troubling-trend https://www.historytools.org/school/why-do-schools-look-like... >During the 19th century Industrial Revolution, reformers explicitly modeled public schools after factories to habituate youth to regimented workplace environments. >Cell-like classrooms with regimented rows of desks >Rigid schedules and rules to control movement >Obedience to authority figures >Conformity and standardization >In the 20th century, disciplinary issues led architects to also incorporate prison elements >Enclosing perimeter fences up to 10 feet high >Locked or monitored gates limiting entrance/exit >Surveillance cameras blanketing hallways and grounds >Metal detectors >Mesh covered windows preventing exit attempts >Sparse and durable interior materials resistant to damage >Currently over 17% of schools possess 10 or more of these. Their prevalence continues rising yearly. The article goes on but this should hopefully be illustrative of my point.

protocolture 2y ago

Nah I agree 100%. My computer studies teacher would teach us about ergonomics and warcraft. Whereas, exploiting the school systems taught me far more. Heck we had VB6 compilers installed on school systems, but got maybe 1 week of curriculum over 3 years. However they were very good for building my first nefarious apps. Theres an expectation by many students that you can just meet all class obligations and receive a proper education. But really, class metrics are for ass covering. You need to use that time, when the world isnt trying to squeeze you for labor, to actually learn things.