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Not only that, but it explains the disdain for Europe in the current American government. European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and qua

Not only that, but it explains the disdain for Europe in the current American government. European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our government. Fascists hate a counterexample.

ranger_danger 2y ago
Seems like "they hate us for our freedom!" has done a complete 180 as of late.
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  Yes and it's verifiable via the leaked signal messages from VP Vance and SecDef Hegseth.
- watwut 2y ago
  Like US is supporting fascist moments in Europe and sight heiling.
tpm 2y ago
Corporations and oligarchs effectively own European governments too. Just possibly a bit less than in the US.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  They own European governments far more. They just have several hundred years of extra practice at being subtle.
  - tpm 2y ago
    Going by "The purpose of a system is what it does", I think European (specifically EU-member) states do a lot more for their citizens than the US does, in welfare, healthcare, environment, infrastructure and so on, so either the oligarchs are very subtle indeed (looking at our Slovakian oligarchs... I don't think so) or they just don't own the governments far more (yet). They are certainly trying though. I think this is because effectively influencing European politics as a whole (as opposed to individual countries) is much more complicated than the US because of the diversity of languages, cultures and media, but then the EU-level politics will also influence state politics. But also every country has a commissioner in the commission and a vote in the EC, so there are several levels of feedback. Of course many internal and external actors are trying to own or destroy the EU, I just hope they won't be succesful.
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      The European upper class doesn't generally pay taxes, and they are more of internationalists than you are thinking. They move around enough and have their home base somewhere like Monaco so they don't participate at all in the welfare systems. European welfare systems redistribute huge amounts of money from the middle class to the poor, not from the rich. In other words, the European welfare systems are actually a great tool of theirs to keep the competition down: if you're taxing the upper-middle-class workers at a ~50% rate, they need to out-earn you 2:1 to build wealth at the same rate.
      - tpm 2y ago
        I'm not disagreeing with you, just that even with all that "the common people" still get more from the state than in the US, that's at least my feeling.
    - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      European governments do these extra things for their citizens because they have to. Or at least historically had to. Because there was an active socialist & communist movement -- with massive trade union support -- on the continent forcing them to. That is basically non-existent in the US, and very weak and closer to non-existent in Canada. (We only have universal healthcare here because of the actions of the social democratic CCF/NDP in the 60s in Saskatchewan, winning against a doctor's strike and showing the centre-left in the rest of the country that it was possible. At that moment in time. I don't think such a thing could ever be won now. Not against an established insurance industry.)
- soco 2y ago
  And this is a very important point: there's no "perfect" situation (mandatory Churchill quote: "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried"). But there are so many nuances of gray that it's most important to differentiate. Yes, there's stupid EU bureaucracy. But citizens can influence it, look at the legendary straight banana regulation: it was repealed. And so on, slow, imperfect, annoying and at times even dangerous, but it kinda works. However, it will need much more to be able to withstand these times...
lurk2 2y ago
> European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our government. Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans. They are also substantially poorer than Americans, and those numbers get worse when you account for America’s average being skewed lower by having a higher proportion of recent immigrants with lower earning potentials.
- askonomm 2y ago
  And yet, by all accounts we have a higher life quality than Americans. Only Americans care about money, because in USA you don't get anything without paying for it all yourself. Here we have minimum mandatory vacations for 4 weeks per year, and many countries have a lot more than that, most countries have a year or more of maternity leave, paid of course, we have plenty of public holidays, paid of course, and we don't need to do work while in a hospital or when giving birth, as that would be illegal for the employer to ask of you. There's also no at-will firing just because your boss doesn't like your face, there needs to be an actual reason proving that a person cannot fulfill responsibilities, and there also needs to be a chance given to improve on the mistakes before firing a person. Our food is not riddled in toxic waste because of those horrible regulations that Americans don't like, our air is breathable because of those same horrible regulations, companies are not allowed to just steal and sell all of our data or keep it indefinitely, because of those horrible regulations, which makes American tyrants mad because they can't make their billion dollar startups here so easily since they're used to breaking the law, abusing people, or paying off governments to get what they want, which is a lot harder to do here. Much sad, many tear, for the poor American startup founder. Europeans by and large don't share the same values as Americans. Being filthy rich isn't our goal, our goal is good health, spending time with our loved ones, having plenty of time to rest and dedicate on our hobbies, and being treated fairly and with respect. Americans on the other hand care about money at all cost, doesn't matter if it's at the expense of working class people, and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy. I also don't know what freedom of speech you are talking about since I read the news and USA seems to have everything, BUT freedom of speech. Your education is down the toilet, crime is rampant, police murders minorities on a regular basis, school shootings everywhere, a government as corrupt as can possibly be, people fired en masse everywhere for not replying to an e-mail ...
chasd00 2y ago
Man the European/anti-US folks are really triggered this morning. Yeah criminal justice moves slow in the US and isn’t perfect at all. It’s a huge thing from local police and courts to the FBI and… even more courts. As for lawyers there’s a reason for the joke “what do you call a million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.”
- kubb 2y ago
  Calling people triggered only works as an argument in the US. It’s meaningless over here.
  - bavell 2y ago
    Sounds like an observation, not an argument.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    Let me in :(
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  > isn’t perfect at all Isn't this purposefully minimizing what essentially amounts to a poor-people-torture machine. The purpose of the system is what the system does. In the US we have deeply ingrained perverse financial incentives in criminal justice with wildly variable sentencing that depends on the mood of the judge that day. Stray any amount from the fine line of legal, and if you're unlucky you could be plunged into a system where you'll be put into massive debt, while also losing your job, home, important documents, etc. We claim to want to reform criminals, yet we kick out their feet at every turn and expect them to say "thank you". And then the people who face the smallest amount of risk to being victimized by this system like to say "Yeah, it's not perfect".
cmrdporcupine 2y ago
The "official" line about Europe is "they get to live this way because we protect them" or some such. Similar things are uttered by the same people about Canada, but with more denigrating comments. In absolute terms the US is much wealthier than either. But like always with statistics it's important to look at the distribution, not the average. Staying on topic: the Canadian legal system is probably about as bureaucratically dysfunctional as the US, just without the private super-prisons and the monetary shakedown. Which is to say it's dysfunctional and broke.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dionidium 2y ago
You'll save yourself a lot of time and confusion by accepting that neither side is jealous of the other. I don't want the lifestyle Europe is selling.
- ty6853 2y ago
  The hilarious thing is to get a visa in Europe one of the most reliable ways is to start a business under DAFT or be an investor. They want the evil hypercapitalist entrepreneur, they don't actually want the kind of people that their system often claims to champion the most.
akimbostrawman 2y ago
Calling European freedom true freedom compared to American one is laughable and I say that as a European. Almost no country in Europe comes close to the freedom granted by the bill of rights.
rvba 2y ago
This is the exact reason why Putin invaded Ukraine. Ukraine started to get closer to European Union: more transparent, more democratic, less corrupt and richer. When Russians saw that it was possible in Ukraine, they would get rid of Putin. So he invaded.

ranger_danger 2y ago

Seems like "they hate us for our freedom!" has done a complete 180 as of late.

SauciestGNU 2y ago
Yes and it's verifiable via the leaked signal messages from VP Vance and SecDef Hegseth.
watwut 2y ago
Like US is supporting fascist moments in Europe and sight heiling.

tpm 2y ago

Corporations and oligarchs effectively own European governments too. Just possibly a bit less than in the US.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
They own European governments far more. They just have several hundred years of extra practice at being subtle.
- tpm 2y ago
  Going by "The purpose of a system is what it does", I think European (specifically EU-member) states do a lot more for their citizens than the US does, in welfare, healthcare, environment, infrastructure and so on, so either the oligarchs are very subtle indeed (looking at our Slovakian oligarchs... I don't think so) or they just don't own the governments far more (yet). They are certainly trying though. I think this is because effectively influencing European politics as a whole (as opposed to individual countries) is much more complicated than the US because of the diversity of languages, cultures and media, but then the EU-level politics will also influence state politics. But also every country has a commissioner in the commission and a vote in the EC, so there are several levels of feedback. Of course many internal and external actors are trying to own or destroy the EU, I just hope they won't be succesful.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    The European upper class doesn't generally pay taxes, and they are more of internationalists than you are thinking. They move around enough and have their home base somewhere like Monaco so they don't participate at all in the welfare systems. European welfare systems redistribute huge amounts of money from the middle class to the poor, not from the rich. In other words, the European welfare systems are actually a great tool of theirs to keep the competition down: if you're taxing the upper-middle-class workers at a ~50% rate, they need to out-earn you 2:1 to build wealth at the same rate.
    - tpm 2y ago
      I'm not disagreeing with you, just that even with all that "the common people" still get more from the state than in the US, that's at least my feeling.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    European governments do these extra things for their citizens because they have to. Or at least historically had to. Because there was an active socialist & communist movement -- with massive trade union support -- on the continent forcing them to. That is basically non-existent in the US, and very weak and closer to non-existent in Canada. (We only have universal healthcare here because of the actions of the social democratic CCF/NDP in the 60s in Saskatchewan, winning against a doctor's strike and showing the centre-left in the rest of the country that it was possible. At that moment in time. I don't think such a thing could ever be won now. Not against an established insurance industry.)
soco 2y ago
And this is a very important point: there's no "perfect" situation (mandatory Churchill quote: "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried"). But there are so many nuances of gray that it's most important to differentiate. Yes, there's stupid EU bureaucracy. But citizens can influence it, look at the legendary straight banana regulation: it was repealed. And so on, slow, imperfect, annoying and at times even dangerous, but it kinda works. However, it will need much more to be able to withstand these times...

lurk2 2y ago

> European society proves that Americans could have true freedom and quality of life if it weren't for corporations and oligarchs effectively owning our government. Europeans have far more restrictions on their rights of speech, self-defence, and freedom of conscience than the Americans. They are also substantially poorer than Americans, and those numbers get worse when you account for America’s average being skewed lower by having a higher proportion of recent immigrants with lower earning potentials.

askonomm 2y ago
And yet, by all accounts we have a higher life quality than Americans. Only Americans care about money, because in USA you don't get anything without paying for it all yourself. Here we have minimum mandatory vacations for 4 weeks per year, and many countries have a lot more than that, most countries have a year or more of maternity leave, paid of course, we have plenty of public holidays, paid of course, and we don't need to do work while in a hospital or when giving birth, as that would be illegal for the employer to ask of you. There's also no at-will firing just because your boss doesn't like your face, there needs to be an actual reason proving that a person cannot fulfill responsibilities, and there also needs to be a chance given to improve on the mistakes before firing a person. Our food is not riddled in toxic waste because of those horrible regulations that Americans don't like, our air is breathable because of those same horrible regulations, companies are not allowed to just steal and sell all of our data or keep it indefinitely, because of those horrible regulations, which makes American tyrants mad because they can't make their billion dollar startups here so easily since they're used to breaking the law, abusing people, or paying off governments to get what they want, which is a lot harder to do here. Much sad, many tear, for the poor American startup founder. Europeans by and large don't share the same values as Americans. Being filthy rich isn't our goal, our goal is good health, spending time with our loved ones, having plenty of time to rest and dedicate on our hobbies, and being treated fairly and with respect. Americans on the other hand care about money at all cost, doesn't matter if it's at the expense of working class people, and they view people who work less than 80 hours a week as lazy. I also don't know what freedom of speech you are talking about since I read the news and USA seems to have everything, BUT freedom of speech. Your education is down the toilet, crime is rampant, police murders minorities on a regular basis, school shootings everywhere, a government as corrupt as can possibly be, people fired en masse everywhere for not replying to an e-mail ...

chasd00 2y ago

Man the European/anti-US folks are really triggered this morning. Yeah criminal justice moves slow in the US and isn’t perfect at all. It’s a huge thing from local police and courts to the FBI and… even more courts. As for lawyers there’s a reason for the joke “what do you call a million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.”

kubb 2y ago
Calling people triggered only works as an argument in the US. It’s meaningless over here.
- bavell 2y ago
  Sounds like an observation, not an argument.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Let me in :(
MSFT_Edging 2y ago
> isn’t perfect at all Isn't this purposefully minimizing what essentially amounts to a poor-people-torture machine. The purpose of the system is what the system does. In the US we have deeply ingrained perverse financial incentives in criminal justice with wildly variable sentencing that depends on the mood of the judge that day. Stray any amount from the fine line of legal, and if you're unlucky you could be plunged into a system where you'll be put into massive debt, while also losing your job, home, important documents, etc. We claim to want to reform criminals, yet we kick out their feet at every turn and expect them to say "thank you". And then the people who face the smallest amount of risk to being victimized by this system like to say "Yeah, it's not perfect".

cmrdporcupine 2y ago

The "official" line about Europe is "they get to live this way because we protect them" or some such. Similar things are uttered by the same people about Canada, but with more denigrating comments. In absolute terms the US is much wealthier than either. But like always with statistics it's important to look at the distribution, not the average. Staying on topic: the Canadian legal system is probably about as bureaucratically dysfunctional as the US, just without the private super-prisons and the monetary shakedown. Which is to say it's dysfunctional and broke.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

dionidium 2y ago

You'll save yourself a lot of time and confusion by accepting that neither side is jealous of the other. I don't want the lifestyle Europe is selling.

ty6853 2y ago
The hilarious thing is to get a visa in Europe one of the most reliable ways is to start a business under DAFT or be an investor. They want the evil hypercapitalist entrepreneur, they don't actually want the kind of people that their system often claims to champion the most.

akimbostrawman 2y ago

Calling European freedom true freedom compared to American one is laughable and I say that as a European. Almost no country in Europe comes close to the freedom granted by the bill of rights.

rvba 2y ago

This is the exact reason why Putin invaded Ukraine. Ukraine started to get closer to European Union: more transparent, more democratic, less corrupt and richer. When Russians saw that it was possible in Ukraine, they would get rid of Putin. So he invaded.