4 ms·

Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much not

Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.

tptacek 2y ago
That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,355.27h,85.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.064239911907762%26panoid%3DrBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ%26yaw%3D355.2693897638008!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,3...
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  >That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. The front yard space and number of driveways in the Oak Park link also stuck out to me.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    This is the Chicago block I grew up on. It's less dense than Oak Park. It's easy find blocks like it elsewhere in Chicago. Jeff Park in Chicago and Oak Park are basically clones of each other. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,177.53h,86.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.922534802027684%26panoid%3DprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw%26yaw%3D177.53094509832968!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,1... This is really what most of Chicago looks like (modulo economic conditions in the different neighborhoods --- they're not all this upscale). It's a city of neighborhoods. Most of the streetscapes that jump to mind about Chicago, if you don't live here, are places people basically don't live.
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      Wow, you weren't kidding about the relative density between those areas. I'd consider Oak Park dense compared to most suburbs, just not as dense as some neighborhoods in Chicago. I'm most familiar with the north side neighborhoods and had those kind of lots in mind, with their near non-existent front yards, with front steps right off the sidewalk, and virtually no front driveways. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9405345,-87.6750174,3a,75y,246.91h,92.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNaG--ahx5tWwQHoj4VLtmA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.2364078065684225%26panoid%3DNaG--ahx5tWwQHoj4VLtmA%26yaw%3D246.9102705850816!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9405345,-87.6750174,3a,75y,2...
      - tptacek 2y ago
        My old stomping grounds. I lived in Lakeview (incl. this block) for a long time. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9403868,-87.6590203,3a,75y,356.81h,87.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS8-Sw4pbqWoNA_QtZ_snGw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.801636262900203%26panoid%3DS8-Sw4pbqWoNA_QtZ_snGw%26yaw%3D356.8104455836844!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9403868,-87.6590203,3a,75y,3...
        dugmartin 2y ago
        Apartment building on Pine Grove in Lakeview for me and then a beautiful old two flat in Ravenswood. My rent in Pine Grove in 1999 was $400 I think for a two room apartment.
        joshgachnang 2y ago
        Haha my wife lived on Pine Grove and I lived a couple blocks from that spot in Lakeview. Small world.
    - namibj 2y ago
- wat10000 2y ago
  Those houses are more densely packed than in what I'd call a suburb. And much more importantly, nothing in that area is more than a few blocks from some sort of commerce. Suburbia (at least in the US) isn't so much about the houses themselves, but what's around them. I'm in one of those "streetcar suburbs" and the nearest store is a mile away and the bus comes every 20 minutes. I could get by without a car but it would be very annoying. You might find a fairly similar set of houses in the nearby city, but they'll be near a lot of stuff and living without a car would be far more practical.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Nothing in Oak Park is more than a few blocks from a commercial zone either.
    - wat10000 2y ago
      Yeah, I wouldn't call that a suburb either for practical purposes. It would be one by the definition of "small city near big city," but in terms of how it functions it looks like city to me.
lazyasciiart 2y ago
I agree, but if only you could convince all the NIMBY asshats in Seattle who want to live on a half acre lot ten minutes from the center of downtown.
- reverius42 2y ago
  Good luck convincing someone who lives on a half acre 10 minutes from downtown to give that up.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Offering to make them multimillionaires in exchange for the land so you can build apartments should work
    - alistairSH 2y ago
      Except for the neighbors who will likely block that apartment build-out via any means possible.
      - throwway120385 2y ago
        Do they actually do that here, or are you just saying that?
        CalRobert 2y ago
        They do that everywhere!
        rileyphone 2y ago
        It's baked in to the process as part of design review, after getting pass the first wall of zoning. https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/public-participation/early-community-outreach-for-design-review https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/public-participation/e...
        alistairSH 2y ago
dionidium 2y ago
Some US cities incorporated their lower-density "streetcar suburbs" over the years and other US cities didn't. This is why "Kansas City" proper has literal farmland [0] within its city limits, while "St. Louis" proper [1] on the other side of the state doesn't even include most of the skyscraper development that's occurred there within the last 40 years. This is entirely arbitrary and knowing whether a particular place is technically part of "the city" doesn't really tell you anything about it. As you might expect, this causes a ton of unnecessary confusion. [0] Part of Kansas City proper: https://maps.app.goo.gl/9B9rhVzAtSykLhUs5 https://maps.app.goo.gl/9B9rhVzAtSykLhUs5 [1] "St. Louis" but not part of St. Louis proper: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXM7A2fQYY2Kh3vY6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXM7A2fQYY2Kh3vY6
- lolinder 2y ago
  They're pretty clearly not using "the city" to refer to city but instead to a certain density threshold, so pointing out that city limits are arbitrary doesn't really help anything.
  - dionidium 2y ago
    What you're describing is called "agreement." I'm very plainly arguing that if the distinction between "city" and "suburb" is to mean anything at all, then it can't just be about what's within municipal boundaries and what isn't.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      So you were agreeing with OP's comment, not disagreeing? > Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.
      - dionidium 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,355.27h,85.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.064239911907762%26panoid%3DrBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ%26yaw%3D355.2693897638008!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,3...

TeaBrain 2y ago
>That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. The front yard space and number of driveways in the Oak Park link also stuck out to me.
- tptacek 2y ago
  This is the Chicago block I grew up on. It's less dense than Oak Park. It's easy find blocks like it elsewhere in Chicago. Jeff Park in Chicago and Oak Park are basically clones of each other. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,177.53h,86.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.922534802027684%26panoid%3DprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw%26yaw%3D177.53094509832968!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,1... This is really what most of Chicago looks like (modulo economic conditions in the different neighborhoods --- they're not all this upscale). It's a city of neighborhoods. Most of the streetscapes that jump to mind about Chicago, if you don't live here, are places people basically don't live.
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    Wow, you weren't kidding about the relative density between those areas. I'd consider Oak Park dense compared to most suburbs, just not as dense as some neighborhoods in Chicago. I'm most familiar with the north side neighborhoods and had those kind of lots in mind, with their near non-existent front yards, with front steps right off the sidewalk, and virtually no front driveways. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9405345,-87.6750174,3a,75y,246.91h,92.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNaG--ahx5tWwQHoj4VLtmA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.2364078065684225%26panoid%3DNaG--ahx5tWwQHoj4VLtmA%26yaw%3D246.9102705850816!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9405345,-87.6750174,3a,75y,2...
    - tptacek 2y ago
      My old stomping grounds. I lived in Lakeview (incl. this block) for a long time. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9403868,-87.6590203,3a,75y,356.81h,87.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS8-Sw4pbqWoNA_QtZ_snGw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.801636262900203%26panoid%3DS8-Sw4pbqWoNA_QtZ_snGw%26yaw%3D356.8104455836844!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9403868,-87.6590203,3a,75y,3...
      - dugmartin 2y ago
        Apartment building on Pine Grove in Lakeview for me and then a beautiful old two flat in Ravenswood. My rent in Pine Grove in 1999 was $400 I think for a two room apartment.
        joshgachnang 2y ago
        Haha my wife lived on Pine Grove and I lived a couple blocks from that spot in Lakeview. Small world.
  - namibj 2y ago
wat10000 2y ago
Those houses are more densely packed than in what I'd call a suburb. And much more importantly, nothing in that area is more than a few blocks from some sort of commerce. Suburbia (at least in the US) isn't so much about the houses themselves, but what's around them. I'm in one of those "streetcar suburbs" and the nearest store is a mile away and the bus comes every 20 minutes. I could get by without a car but it would be very annoying. You might find a fairly similar set of houses in the nearby city, but they'll be near a lot of stuff and living without a car would be far more practical.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Nothing in Oak Park is more than a few blocks from a commercial zone either.
  - wat10000 2y ago
    Yeah, I wouldn't call that a suburb either for practical purposes. It would be one by the definition of "small city near big city," but in terms of how it functions it looks like city to me.

lazyasciiart 2y ago

I agree, but if only you could convince all the NIMBY asshats in Seattle who want to live on a half acre lot ten minutes from the center of downtown.

reverius42 2y ago
Good luck convincing someone who lives on a half acre 10 minutes from downtown to give that up.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Offering to make them multimillionaires in exchange for the land so you can build apartments should work
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    Except for the neighbors who will likely block that apartment build-out via any means possible.
    - throwway120385 2y ago
      Do they actually do that here, or are you just saying that?
      - CalRobert 2y ago
        They do that everywhere!
      - rileyphone 2y ago
        It's baked in to the process as part of design review, after getting pass the first wall of zoning. https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/public-participation/early-community-outreach-for-design-review https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/public-participation/e...
      - alistairSH 2y ago

dionidium 2y ago

Some US cities incorporated their lower-density "streetcar suburbs" over the years and other US cities didn't. This is why "Kansas City" proper has literal farmland [0] within its city limits, while "St. Louis" proper [1] on the other side of the state doesn't even include most of the skyscraper development that's occurred there within the last 40 years. This is entirely arbitrary and knowing whether a particular place is technically part of "the city" doesn't really tell you anything about it. As you might expect, this causes a ton of unnecessary confusion. [0] Part of Kansas City proper: https://maps.app.goo.gl/9B9rhVzAtSykLhUs5 https://maps.app.goo.gl/9B9rhVzAtSykLhUs5 [1] "St. Louis" but not part of St. Louis proper: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXM7A2fQYY2Kh3vY6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXM7A2fQYY2Kh3vY6

lolinder 2y ago
They're pretty clearly not using "the city" to refer to city but instead to a certain density threshold, so pointing out that city limits are arbitrary doesn't really help anything.
- dionidium 2y ago
  What you're describing is called "agreement." I'm very plainly arguing that if the distinction between "city" and "suburb" is to mean anything at all, then it can't just be about what's within municipal boundaries and what isn't.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    So you were agreeing with OP's comment, not disagreeing? > Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.
    - dionidium 2y ago