5 ms·
There's no official definition of what the "the suburbs" means, but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of devel
by azdle 2y ago
There's no official definition of what the "the suburbs" means, but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of development". Think culdesacs and no sidewalks. The area you linked looks to me more like an older "streetcar suburb", which I think most people would just call "the city".
- RHSeeger 2y agoNobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.
- tptacek 2y agoThat street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,355.27h,85.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D4.064239911907762%26panoid%3DrBnyzTbfkqXu6kT9tGwBJQ%26yaw%3D355.2693897638008!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9301849,-87.7195955,3a,75y,3...
- TeaBrain 2y ago>That street is basically identical to most of the city of Chicago. The only difference is fewer 2-flats. The front yard space and number of driveways in the Oak Park link also stuck out to me.
- tptacek 2y agoThis is the Chicago block I grew up on. It's less dense than Oak Park. It's easy find blocks like it elsewhere in Chicago. Jeff Park in Chicago and Oak Park are basically clones of each other. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,177.53h,86.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.922534802027684%26panoid%3DprjCckqACxciA7REv5uJBw%26yaw%3D177.53094509832968!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7099143,-87.6801127,3a,75y,1... This is really what most of Chicago looks like (modulo economic conditions in the different neighborhoods --- they're not all this upscale). It's a city of neighborhoods. Most of the streetscapes that jump to mind about Chicago, if you don't live here, are places people basically don't live.
- TeaBrain 2y agoWow, you weren't kidding about the relative density between those areas. I'd consider Oak Park dense compared to most suburbs, just not as dense as some neighborhoods in Chicago. I'm most familiar with the north side neighborhoods and had those kind of lots in mind, with their near non-existent front yards, with front steps right off the sidewalk, and virtually no front driveways. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9405345,-87.6750174,3a,75y,246.91h,92.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNaG--ahx5tWwQHoj4VLtmA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.2364078065684225%26panoid%3DNaG--ahx5tWwQHoj4VLtmA%26yaw%3D246.9102705850816!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9405345,-87.6750174,3a,75y,2...
- tptacek 2y agoMy old stomping grounds. I lived in Lakeview (incl. this block) for a long time. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9403868,-87.6590203,3a,75y,356.81h,87.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS8-Sw4pbqWoNA_QtZ_snGw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.801636262900203%26panoid%3DS8-Sw4pbqWoNA_QtZ_snGw%26yaw%3D356.8104455836844!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMyMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9403868,-87.6590203,3a,75y,3...
- dugmartin 2y agoApartment building on Pine Grove in Lakeview for me and then a beautiful old two flat in Ravenswood. My rent in Pine Grove in 1999 was $400 I think for a two room apartment.
- joshgachnang 2y agoHaha my wife lived on Pine Grove and I lived a couple blocks from that spot in Lakeview. Small world.
- namibj 2y ago
- wat10000 2y agoThose houses are more densely packed than in what I'd call a suburb. And much more importantly, nothing in that area is more than a few blocks from some sort of commerce. Suburbia (at least in the US) isn't so much about the houses themselves, but what's around them. I'm in one of those "streetcar suburbs" and the nearest store is a mile away and the bus comes every 20 minutes. I could get by without a car but it would be very annoying. You might find a fairly similar set of houses in the nearby city, but they'll be near a lot of stuff and living without a car would be far more practical.
- lazyasciiart 2y agoI agree, but if only you could convince all the NIMBY asshats in Seattle who want to live on a half acre lot ten minutes from the center of downtown.
- reverius42 2y agoGood luck convincing someone who lives on a half acre 10 minutes from downtown to give that up.
- CalRobert 2y agoOffering to make them multimillionaires in exchange for the land so you can build apartments should work
- alistairSH 2y agoExcept for the neighbors who will likely block that apartment build-out via any means possible.
- throwway120385 2y agoDo they actually do that here, or are you just saying that?
- CalRobert 2y agoThey do that everywhere!
- rileyphone 2y agoIt's baked in to the process as part of design review, after getting pass the first wall of zoning. https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/public-participation/early-community-outreach-for-design-review https://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/public-participation/e...
- alistairSH 2y ago
- dionidium 2y agoSome US cities incorporated their lower-density "streetcar suburbs" over the years and other US cities didn't. This is why "Kansas City" proper has literal farmland [0] within its city limits, while "St. Louis" proper [1] on the other side of the state doesn't even include most of the skyscraper development that's occurred there within the last 40 years. This is entirely arbitrary and knowing whether a particular place is technically part of "the city" doesn't really tell you anything about it. As you might expect, this causes a ton of unnecessary confusion. [0] Part of Kansas City proper: https://maps.app.goo.gl/9B9rhVzAtSykLhUs5 https://maps.app.goo.gl/9B9rhVzAtSykLhUs5 [1] "St. Louis" but not part of St. Louis proper: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXM7A2fQYY2Kh3vY6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXM7A2fQYY2Kh3vY6
- lolinder 2y agoThey're pretty clearly not using "the city" to refer to city but instead to a certain density threshold, so pointing out that city limits are arbitrary doesn't really help anything.
- dionidium 2y agoWhat you're describing is called "agreement." I'm very plainly arguing that if the distinction between "city" and "suburb" is to mean anything at all, then it can't just be about what's within municipal boundaries and what isn't.
- lolinder 2y agoSo you were agreeing with OP's comment, not disagreeing? > Nobody I know would call that street the city. In my mind, "the city" is, minimally, houses that are a few feet apart, small yard in back/front, pretty much nothing on the side. Frequently, it's 2-3 story buildings, with whole floors rented out as an apartment. That's my "least dense" vision of a city. Anything less than that (ie, full yards) falls into my vision of suburb.
- dionidium 2y ago
- oldandboring 2y agoAgree. Lots of US cities have neighborhoods like this outside of the downtown business districts. Even in NYC, famous for concrete-jungle apartment dwelling, you find this in Staten Island and in parts of Queens.
- ascagnel_ 2y agoIt's the same if you go west -- Hudson County, NJ, is mostly neighborhoods that were designed as streetcar suburbs if you measure by land area.
- oldandboring 2y agoYup. Sacramento has lots of this. LA county. Boise, Salt Lake City. List goes on.
- fsckboy 2y agowe each can only rely on our own experiences, but mine don't agree with you. suburbs in the US northeast have sidewalks. most of LA looks like a suburb to a nor'easter. No sidewalk? rural.
- lolinder 2y ago> but when people say that they usually mean "areas that follow a post-war suburban style of development". Think culdesacs and no sidewalks. Define people? When most people I know say suburb they mean this: You're far enough the urban core that you probably have to drive to get to shops and jobs, but close enough to the urban core that you don't pass through farmland to get there. Some suburbs are like what you describe, but most are exactly like what OP links to. I'm not at all sure what the utility is of a using a definition of suburb that excludes most of the not-high-density but not-rural US and only counts the absolute worst-designed spaces. It just means we're all talking past each other, with some of us saying "not all suburbs are terrible" and others insisting that suburbs are by definition terrible and anything that isn't terrible isn't a suburb. It's a bit of a True Scotsman fallacy and doesn't make for very useful dialog.
- throwaway894345 2y agoI mean, you’re making the same sort of NTS argument here, aren’t you? > Some suburbs are like what you describe, but most are exactly like what OP links to. Without defining what constitutes a suburb, how can you argue that most are good? Your argument hinges on your own definition of suburb IMHO. I’m not sure what the right answer is, but in my experience most people mean post-war development patterns when they talk about suburbs, but in any case it probably doesn’t hurt to be more precise about what we are praising or criticizing.
- lolinder 2y agoNo, I'm not, because I'm not saying that what you are identifying as a suburb isn't a suburb, I'm saying it's not representative of all suburbs. I provide a perfectly valid definition: > You're far enough the urban core that you probably have to drive to get to shops and jobs, but close enough to the urban core that you don't pass through farmland to get there. Since my definition is broader it's less susceptible to NTS fallacies. What you identify as a suburb is a suburb but it is not all suburbs. > but in my experience most people mean post-war development patterns when they talk about suburbs Even this is too broad to sweepingly say all suburbs are bad. I've lived in 5 different suburban neighborhoods as an adult, 4 of which were developed post-war, and all had sidewalks and plenty of walking around and neighborly interaction.