5 ms·

It's not an insult any more than "rapist" or "fraudster" is. These have all factual definitions, and Trump meets all of them.

by brazzy 2y ago

dcow 2y ago
[flagged]
- moate 2y ago
  Let's use Wikipedia's definition, sure? "far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy." >>forcible suppression of opposition There's the revocation of citizenship, the deporting people to foreign jails without full due process, crackdowns on protestors generally, opposition to trans existence. Do you want links to where this has happened or can we agree these are actions and policy the state has taken recently? >>subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation "We need an economic reset, so don't worry about the inflation", DOGE cutting services, tariffs as a means to...whatever the fuck the tariffs are supposed to fix?
  - dcow 2y ago
    A fascist is not “far right”. I think the dictionary definition is more accepted. So far the people in power have not used violence to suppress opposition. They have not promoted one ethnicity or race above others. They have not made trump a dictator. Trumps authority has remained scoped to the executive office of the government… I mean come on. Just because the party in power across the board is effective at pushing policies you don’t fully agree with does not a fascist regime make. Every single president back to Clinton and probably beyond, including Obama, has spoken out against government waste and spending abuse. These aren’t new soundbytes. Everyone is just up in arms when it’s not their party getting shit done.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > A fascist is not “far right”. I think the dictionary definition is more accepted. Which dictionary? Oxford (https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199891580.001.0001/acref-9780199891580-e-2829 https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/978019...) and Collins (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/fascism https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/fasc...) say right-wing.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > So far the people in power have not used violence to suppress opposition. Forcible deportation for opposing views is exactly use of violence to suppress dissent. > Every single president back to Clinton and probably beyond, including Obama, has spoken out against government waste and spending abuse. And none of them have usurped Congressional spending power and mass violated civil service protections in law using that has a pretext, until the present Administration. It is extremely disingenuous to redirect from the controversial action to the less controversial pretext here.
      - dcow 2y ago
        It’s not just “opposing views”. It was calls for violence and support of terrorists. I guess the media didn't include that detail.
        dragonwriter 2y ago
        > It’s not just “opposing views”. It was calls for violence and support of terrorists. No, it factually wasn't, though all opposition to the Israeli polciy of genocide is being characterized that way to justify it.
        dcow 2y ago
        Let’s see what the courts say. I will respect whatever outcome happens there. I sympathize with not continuing to grant visas to people who lead protests that involve crimes like trespassing as part of their demonstrations in support terrorist organizations. We are not obligated as a country to keep guests who are not supportive of our national interests and feel the need to commit crimes to make points. But I also recognize the chilling effect that has and believe in extending some level of freedom of expression even to non citizens and believe in civil disobedience. If the protesters were not occupying private buildings after being told to remove themselves and attempting to “negotiate” with authorities the whole situation would be benign. I have pretty low tolerance right now for demonstrations that turn criminal.
- CharlesW 2y ago
  Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_fascism
- scheeseman486 2y ago
  Centralized power, promises of historical greatness (literally in the campaign slogan), ostracization of the other. He speaks like a dictator, makes extra-legal threats to his domestic enemies and has surrounded himself with people who have repeatedly made strong endorsements for white nationalism. I think you know this, it's just that you probably want all those things because, ding ding, you're a fascist.
  - dcow 2y ago
    I’ll take the dictionary definition: Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition I genuinely and in good faith do not believe Trump fits this definition. You can’t just call all your political opponents fascists. We’re kinda over that by now.
    - scheeseman486 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dcow 2y ago
        [flagged]
        scheeseman486 2y ago
        You're not arguing in good faith, the opposite, and as such aren't worthy of treating with anything but contempt.
        dcow 2y ago
        I’m not calling people names.
- DFHippie 2y ago
  Just go down this list: https://www.keene.edu/academics/cchgs/resources/presentation-materials/characteristics-and-appeal-of-fascism/download/ https://www.keene.edu/academics/cchgs/resources/presentation...
- groby_b 2y ago
  Concentration camps in El Salvador, with extrajudicial extradition and no due process? Or, less dramatic, a drive for national autarky. A very much dirigiste economy. (Cf. massive tariffs). A drive towards a one-party state without a rule of law - explicitly punishing people with dissenting viewpoints to the point of economic exclusion. (Columbia. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Garrison & Wharton. Jenner & Block). Let's call a spade a spade, shall we?
  - dcow 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - groby_b 2y ago
      I don't object to jailing people, or sending them back. I do, very much, object to lack of due process or recourse. Which is a fundamental element of, at the very least, autocracies.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > Or, you mean, sending criminals back to the jails from whence they came? https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436.26.1_3.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278... "While it is true that many of the TdA members removed under the AEA do not have criminal records in the United States, that is because they have only been in the United States for a short period of time." That's the official position of the US government, in a court filing - that some of those deported did not have a criminal record. (Even their membership in the org is an assertion/allegation, not one that's been proven in court.)
- 7952 2y ago
  People need to look at the totality of his actions and policy. It is about character rather than litigating a particular argument.
  - dcow 2y ago
    I think Trump and his administration are patriots. Clearly to a fault at times, but everyone has faults. I do not step back and see America on a course to fascism with Trump at the helm. If we drown in debt we don’t have a nation. Full stop. Someone has to look at how we spend our money, ask fundamentally whether it serves the taxpayer’s interest, and make calls. Illegal aliens are expensive. Corruption is expensive. Unfair trade is expensive. Dependence on other nations for strategic manufacturing is expensive. Exporting labor is expensive. I mean what actually is the outrage here? I do not see it. I see patriots trying to defend taxpayer interests. Taxpayers are the in group. That’s not racist or ethnic. It’s nationalist. Defending its citizens is what nations do. Since when is that equal to fascism?
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > If we drown in debt we don’t have a nation. "That's why I voted for the guy who added 1/3 of it in just four out of ~250 years!" (And plans to do it again. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce81g9593dro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce81g9593dro)
    - subsection1h 2y ago
      > I mean what actually is the outrage here? I do not see it. I see patriots trying to defend taxpayer interests. Yikes. > Taxpayers are the in group. The in-group is right-wingers, such as farmers[1] and Likud[2]. [1] https://www.usda.gov/about-usda/news/press-releases/2025/03/18/usda-expediting-10-billion-direct-economic-assistance-agricultural-producers https://www.usda.gov/about-usda/news/press-releases/2025/03/... [2] https://www.state.gov/military-assistance-to-israel/ https://www.state.gov/military-assistance-to-israel/
      - dcow 2y ago
        As long as you keep convincing yourself that this is just a phase of right wing crazies, it will keep happening. Support for the democrats has never been lower. There is bipartisan support for the current administration. It’s not just right-wing personalities. Take it or leave it, but I’m not living in a vacuum.
scheeseman486 2y ago
Unfortunately the kind of people who support Trump aren't smart and only see adjectives as either complementary or as a pejorative. They don't care about what the words actually mean. See: "woke".
beeflet 2y ago
I think it is pretty obvious that trump doesn't have any real political ambitions besides being popular and powerful, and seeking personal retribution against those who tarnish his reputation. In fact, he increasingly just seems like a tired old man fulfilling his political obligations he made in his last campaign. Even when he was running, he would pretty much cosy up to any political group that held him in high regard. He has always been a sleazy businessman who takes advantage of his brand name — not much has changed. The idea that trump cares about "fascism", or is even capable of holding such high-minded political beliefs is some hysterical leftist nonsense. Trump is the type of politician that would support any topic "X" as long as you campaigned on the basis of "X is cool and trump is also cool". In our timeline X was cryptocurrency, antivax, Qanon, charlottesville protesters, etc. but it could have just as easily been environmentalists, gay rights activists, BLM, etc. When most people talk about facism, they are referring to a regime like those under hitler or mussolini. I am pretty sure hitler and mussolini had actual political goals they cared about. There will never be a "night of the long knives" because there is nothing that trump even wants that's worth backstabbing his allies over. To use the word fascist is ridiculous, because he is just acting as a ouija board for his dopey supporters.
- diputsmonro 2y ago
  The word "fascist" still applies as a descriptive term, even if Trump doesn't identify with or intentionally pursue it. I mostly agree with your characterization of him, but those tendencies of sleazy egoism naturally lead to authoritarian policies. When your ego must be stroked and your word must be last, you naturally fight against important democratic safeguards that would restrain you, like apolotical bureaucracies and separation of powers, both of which we're seeing play out literally right now. Trump is defying Congress's sole authority of appropriating government funds, and has strongly signaled intent to defy court orders (and only hasn't technically defied them yet because decisions are still pending). DOGE is a thin excuse to purge federal agencies and fill them with partisan yes-men (or simply destroy them altogether and give Trump full control). Despite Trump's personal politics, it's obvious that those in his orbit (including several cabinet appointees and his VP) do have intentionally fascist ideals and goals. Whether Trump personally cares or not is a distinction without a difference. He may not care about pursuing a "night of long knives", but many who have influence in his administration do, and Trump probably won't care to stop them, especially if it makes him seem like a strong, no-nonsense leader. Fascism is coming to America and Donald Trump is the one commanding the cult of personality that is making it happen. That alone is worthy of criticism. It should be concerning to anyone who opposes fascism, regardless of who exactly is to blame or how exactly it is being done. Arguments like yours are mostly a distraction.
aubanel 2y ago
Please elaborate. From what I know fascism has components like having the collective prime over the individual, and cult of personality, that Trump's administration does not have. (Before you think I'm a Trump supporter/fascist, I'm not even American, and my great-grandparents fought Nazis)
- diputsmonro 2y ago
  You don't think Trump commands a cult of personality? I don't know where to begin with that.
- justanotheratom 2y ago
  HN is simply deranged about Trump and now Elon, and want to slap Fascism on everything.

It's not an insult any more than "rapist" or "fraudster" is. These have all factual definitions, and Trump meets all of them.

by brazzy 2y ago

It's not an insult any more than "rapist" or "fraudster" is. These have all factual definitions, and Trump meets all of them.

dcow 2y ago

[flagged]

moate 2y ago
Let's use Wikipedia's definition, sure? "far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy." >>forcible suppression of opposition There's the revocation of citizenship, the deporting people to foreign jails without full due process, crackdowns on protestors generally, opposition to trans existence. Do you want links to where this has happened or can we agree these are actions and policy the state has taken recently? >>subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation "We need an economic reset, so don't worry about the inflation", DOGE cutting services, tariffs as a means to...whatever the fuck the tariffs are supposed to fix?
- dcow 2y ago
  A fascist is not “far right”. I think the dictionary definition is more accepted. So far the people in power have not used violence to suppress opposition. They have not promoted one ethnicity or race above others. They have not made trump a dictator. Trumps authority has remained scoped to the executive office of the government… I mean come on. Just because the party in power across the board is effective at pushing policies you don’t fully agree with does not a fascist regime make. Every single president back to Clinton and probably beyond, including Obama, has spoken out against government waste and spending abuse. These aren’t new soundbytes. Everyone is just up in arms when it’s not their party getting shit done.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > A fascist is not “far right”. I think the dictionary definition is more accepted. Which dictionary? Oxford (https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199891580.001.0001/acref-9780199891580-e-2829 https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/978019...) and Collins (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/fascism https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/fasc...) say right-wing.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > So far the people in power have not used violence to suppress opposition. Forcible deportation for opposing views is exactly use of violence to suppress dissent. > Every single president back to Clinton and probably beyond, including Obama, has spoken out against government waste and spending abuse. And none of them have usurped Congressional spending power and mass violated civil service protections in law using that has a pretext, until the present Administration. It is extremely disingenuous to redirect from the controversial action to the less controversial pretext here.
    - dcow 2y ago
      It’s not just “opposing views”. It was calls for violence and support of terrorists. I guess the media didn't include that detail.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        > It’s not just “opposing views”. It was calls for violence and support of terrorists. No, it factually wasn't, though all opposition to the Israeli polciy of genocide is being characterized that way to justify it.
        dcow 2y ago
        Let’s see what the courts say. I will respect whatever outcome happens there. I sympathize with not continuing to grant visas to people who lead protests that involve crimes like trespassing as part of their demonstrations in support terrorist organizations. We are not obligated as a country to keep guests who are not supportive of our national interests and feel the need to commit crimes to make points. But I also recognize the chilling effect that has and believe in extending some level of freedom of expression even to non citizens and believe in civil disobedience. If the protesters were not occupying private buildings after being told to remove themselves and attempting to “negotiate” with authorities the whole situation would be benign. I have pretty low tolerance right now for demonstrations that turn criminal.
CharlesW 2y ago
Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_fascism
scheeseman486 2y ago
Centralized power, promises of historical greatness (literally in the campaign slogan), ostracization of the other. He speaks like a dictator, makes extra-legal threats to his domestic enemies and has surrounded himself with people who have repeatedly made strong endorsements for white nationalism. I think you know this, it's just that you probably want all those things because, ding ding, you're a fascist.
- dcow 2y ago
  I’ll take the dictionary definition: Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition I genuinely and in good faith do not believe Trump fits this definition. You can’t just call all your political opponents fascists. We’re kinda over that by now.
  - scheeseman486 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dcow 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - scheeseman486 2y ago
        You're not arguing in good faith, the opposite, and as such aren't worthy of treating with anything but contempt.
        dcow 2y ago
        I’m not calling people names.
DFHippie 2y ago
Just go down this list: https://www.keene.edu/academics/cchgs/resources/presentation-materials/characteristics-and-appeal-of-fascism/download/ https://www.keene.edu/academics/cchgs/resources/presentation...
groby_b 2y ago
Concentration camps in El Salvador, with extrajudicial extradition and no due process? Or, less dramatic, a drive for national autarky. A very much dirigiste economy. (Cf. massive tariffs). A drive towards a one-party state without a rule of law - explicitly punishing people with dissenting viewpoints to the point of economic exclusion. (Columbia. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Garrison & Wharton. Jenner & Block). Let's call a spade a spade, shall we?
- dcow 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - groby_b 2y ago
    I don't object to jailing people, or sending them back. I do, very much, object to lack of due process or recourse. Which is a fundamental element of, at the very least, autocracies.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > Or, you mean, sending criminals back to the jails from whence they came? https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436/gov.uscourts.dcd.278436.26.1_3.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.278... "While it is true that many of the TdA members removed under the AEA do not have criminal records in the United States, that is because they have only been in the United States for a short period of time." That's the official position of the US government, in a court filing - that some of those deported did not have a criminal record. (Even their membership in the org is an assertion/allegation, not one that's been proven in court.)
7952 2y ago
People need to look at the totality of his actions and policy. It is about character rather than litigating a particular argument.
- dcow 2y ago
  I think Trump and his administration are patriots. Clearly to a fault at times, but everyone has faults. I do not step back and see America on a course to fascism with Trump at the helm. If we drown in debt we don’t have a nation. Full stop. Someone has to look at how we spend our money, ask fundamentally whether it serves the taxpayer’s interest, and make calls. Illegal aliens are expensive. Corruption is expensive. Unfair trade is expensive. Dependence on other nations for strategic manufacturing is expensive. Exporting labor is expensive. I mean what actually is the outrage here? I do not see it. I see patriots trying to defend taxpayer interests. Taxpayers are the in group. That’s not racist or ethnic. It’s nationalist. Defending its citizens is what nations do. Since when is that equal to fascism?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > If we drown in debt we don’t have a nation. "That's why I voted for the guy who added 1/3 of it in just four out of ~250 years!" (And plans to do it again. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce81g9593dro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce81g9593dro)
  - subsection1h 2y ago
    > I mean what actually is the outrage here? I do not see it. I see patriots trying to defend taxpayer interests. Yikes. > Taxpayers are the in group. The in-group is right-wingers, such as farmers[1] and Likud[2]. [1] https://www.usda.gov/about-usda/news/press-releases/2025/03/18/usda-expediting-10-billion-direct-economic-assistance-agricultural-producers https://www.usda.gov/about-usda/news/press-releases/2025/03/... [2] https://www.state.gov/military-assistance-to-israel/ https://www.state.gov/military-assistance-to-israel/
    - dcow 2y ago
      As long as you keep convincing yourself that this is just a phase of right wing crazies, it will keep happening. Support for the democrats has never been lower. There is bipartisan support for the current administration. It’s not just right-wing personalities. Take it or leave it, but I’m not living in a vacuum.

scheeseman486 2y ago

Unfortunately the kind of people who support Trump aren't smart and only see adjectives as either complementary or as a pejorative. They don't care about what the words actually mean. See: "woke".

beeflet 2y ago

I think it is pretty obvious that trump doesn't have any real political ambitions besides being popular and powerful, and seeking personal retribution against those who tarnish his reputation. In fact, he increasingly just seems like a tired old man fulfilling his political obligations he made in his last campaign. Even when he was running, he would pretty much cosy up to any political group that held him in high regard. He has always been a sleazy businessman who takes advantage of his brand name — not much has changed. The idea that trump cares about "fascism", or is even capable of holding such high-minded political beliefs is some hysterical leftist nonsense. Trump is the type of politician that would support any topic "X" as long as you campaigned on the basis of "X is cool and trump is also cool". In our timeline X was cryptocurrency, antivax, Qanon, charlottesville protesters, etc. but it could have just as easily been environmentalists, gay rights activists, BLM, etc. When most people talk about facism, they are referring to a regime like those under hitler or mussolini. I am pretty sure hitler and mussolini had actual political goals they cared about. There will never be a "night of the long knives" because there is nothing that trump even wants that's worth backstabbing his allies over. To use the word fascist is ridiculous, because he is just acting as a ouija board for his dopey supporters.

diputsmonro 2y ago
The word "fascist" still applies as a descriptive term, even if Trump doesn't identify with or intentionally pursue it. I mostly agree with your characterization of him, but those tendencies of sleazy egoism naturally lead to authoritarian policies. When your ego must be stroked and your word must be last, you naturally fight against important democratic safeguards that would restrain you, like apolotical bureaucracies and separation of powers, both of which we're seeing play out literally right now. Trump is defying Congress's sole authority of appropriating government funds, and has strongly signaled intent to defy court orders (and only hasn't technically defied them yet because decisions are still pending). DOGE is a thin excuse to purge federal agencies and fill them with partisan yes-men (or simply destroy them altogether and give Trump full control). Despite Trump's personal politics, it's obvious that those in his orbit (including several cabinet appointees and his VP) do have intentionally fascist ideals and goals. Whether Trump personally cares or not is a distinction without a difference. He may not care about pursuing a "night of long knives", but many who have influence in his administration do, and Trump probably won't care to stop them, especially if it makes him seem like a strong, no-nonsense leader. Fascism is coming to America and Donald Trump is the one commanding the cult of personality that is making it happen. That alone is worthy of criticism. It should be concerning to anyone who opposes fascism, regardless of who exactly is to blame or how exactly it is being done. Arguments like yours are mostly a distraction.

aubanel 2y ago

Please elaborate. From what I know fascism has components like having the collective prime over the individual, and cult of personality, that Trump's administration does not have. (Before you think I'm a Trump supporter/fascist, I'm not even American, and my great-grandparents fought Nazis)

diputsmonro 2y ago
You don't think Trump commands a cult of personality? I don't know where to begin with that.
justanotheratom 2y ago
HN is simply deranged about Trump and now Elon, and want to slap Fascism on everything.