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I totally get why you do subscription. I totally get why I don't do subscription. Is there some sort of middle ground? Say, minimum purchase cost is the same p

I totally get why you do subscription. I totally get why I don't do subscription. Is there some sort of middle ground? Say, minimum purchase cost is the same price as six months, but it keeps on working afterwards sans updates. When the dev realizes that such a tool is only 80% effective unless it is totally updated, they can subscribe.

kilian 2y ago
Happy to answer this. Polypane is a browser. If you don't keep your browser rendering engine up to date, you're opening yourself to a whole host of security issues (not to mention just generally diverging from what your end users use). Keeping that rendering engine up to date means dealing with a slew of potentially breaking changes with each new chromium version. So there's two reasons: 1. The only way to do that continuous upkeep of the rendering engine that I have found to be sustainable is with a subscription. 2. I definitely don't want to be responsible for people using years-old versions of Chromium.
- HWR_14 2y ago
  If my users are using an old version of Chromium, I probably want to support that and test on it.
  - kilian 2y ago
    Sure. Chromium is an evergreen browser, which means it's continuously patched and updated in the background. Getting a pinned Chromium version takes quite a lot of work, and really only happens in very specific, controlled environments. If you happen to work in such an environment you have vastly different considerations from the other 99% of developers building websites and apps on the public facing web.
VyseofArcadia 2y ago
I liked the old "pay for updates" model. Nowadays, that seems less viable because security updates are so important[0]. I think the middle ground model would be something like security updates are free, feature updates cost money. Something like pay $x for version n+1 or a discounted rate for a subscription. Sounds like a bit of a hassle on the logistics/release engineering side, though. That would need to be handled with some care and planning. [0] Which I'll admit I don't 100% buy, but I'd love for a security expert to weigh in.
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  You admit this, but yeah, it's a big headache that has its own trade-offs. By design, you'll have users spread across any number of versions. And you have to decide how far back you're going to issue updates. And instead of having nice in-app updates and a policy of "just upgrade to the latest version", you have a system that's complicated for you and your users. And you have to decide if you're okay letting users use (by design) releases with issues that have long been fixed. I can see how Adobe and Jetbrains have the manpower to do it, but a solo dev or a small team, you should spend your time building the dang product rather than appeasing people who don't think your product is worth $9/mo.
  - VyseofArcadia 2y ago
    Yeah, I've seen similar in pro-level software tools, CAD applications, MATLAB, etc, but those tend to be large and mature organizations with the expertise and manpower to e.g. backport bugfixes to released versions.
IsTom 2y ago
Maybe it could work similar to how Bitwig licenses work – you buy a license with a year of updates and it's yours – after the year expires you can download binaries for the latest version you're entitled to. Later you can buy access to the current version with an another year of updates (at a lower price) when you've decided that they've added something new you want.
- cy_hauser 2y ago
  Interestingly, this didn't work for Jetbrains. They found people often skipped a year and decided they wanted the "missing" revenue. There answer is to sell the version you "own" as of the date they process your order. You're allowed a full year of updates. However, if you don't continue the subscription then your version automatically rolls back to the version as of your purchase. You lose all the fixes and updates you've been using during the year.
buildfocus 2y ago
Why don't you do subscription? I've heard plenty of arguments on the 'financial tools to manage them are bad' (forget about them, hard to cancel) but few against 'paying money proportional to how much I use the product'. As a general concept that seems reasonable to me - if you use a product for 10 years, it's fair to pay more than somebody who uses it for a couple of months. In a world where finance improves (more subs via Apple Pay et al, more banks like Revolut that show & allow unilaterally blocking any given recurring charge) would you still avoid them?
- sam_goody 2y ago
  - It's hard to convince my boss to create a subscription. - I don't want to become hostage to monthly payments - if I don't pay one month my whole workflow is messed over, so I have to continue (vs. otherwise I can slowly trade it out of my workflow, and/or look for alternatives) - Its hard for me to mentally grok how much I am paying monthly on subscriptions. - I never cancel, because inertia. - I am not sure if this is something that justifies a monthly subscription, and two weeks is too little time for me to invest in changing my workflow to accommodate it. - I hate subscriptions (this is an emotional thing, so you could tell me to get a shrink. But I suspect I am not the only one). I feel like I am missing even bigger reasons, but /rant

kilian 2y ago

Happy to answer this. Polypane is a browser. If you don't keep your browser rendering engine up to date, you're opening yourself to a whole host of security issues (not to mention just generally diverging from what your end users use). Keeping that rendering engine up to date means dealing with a slew of potentially breaking changes with each new chromium version. So there's two reasons: 1. The only way to do that continuous upkeep of the rendering engine that I have found to be sustainable is with a subscription. 2. I definitely don't want to be responsible for people using years-old versions of Chromium.

HWR_14 2y ago
If my users are using an old version of Chromium, I probably want to support that and test on it.
- kilian 2y ago
  Sure. Chromium is an evergreen browser, which means it's continuously patched and updated in the background. Getting a pinned Chromium version takes quite a lot of work, and really only happens in very specific, controlled environments. If you happen to work in such an environment you have vastly different considerations from the other 99% of developers building websites and apps on the public facing web.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago

I liked the old "pay for updates" model. Nowadays, that seems less viable because security updates are so important[0]. I think the middle ground model would be something like security updates are free, feature updates cost money. Something like pay $x for version n+1 or a discounted rate for a subscription. Sounds like a bit of a hassle on the logistics/release engineering side, though. That would need to be handled with some care and planning. [0] Which I'll admit I don't 100% buy, but I'd love for a security expert to weigh in.

hombre_fatal 2y ago
You admit this, but yeah, it's a big headache that has its own trade-offs. By design, you'll have users spread across any number of versions. And you have to decide how far back you're going to issue updates. And instead of having nice in-app updates and a policy of "just upgrade to the latest version", you have a system that's complicated for you and your users. And you have to decide if you're okay letting users use (by design) releases with issues that have long been fixed. I can see how Adobe and Jetbrains have the manpower to do it, but a solo dev or a small team, you should spend your time building the dang product rather than appeasing people who don't think your product is worth $9/mo.
- VyseofArcadia 2y ago
  Yeah, I've seen similar in pro-level software tools, CAD applications, MATLAB, etc, but those tend to be large and mature organizations with the expertise and manpower to e.g. backport bugfixes to released versions.

IsTom 2y ago

Maybe it could work similar to how Bitwig licenses work – you buy a license with a year of updates and it's yours – after the year expires you can download binaries for the latest version you're entitled to. Later you can buy access to the current version with an another year of updates (at a lower price) when you've decided that they've added something new you want.

cy_hauser 2y ago
Interestingly, this didn't work for Jetbrains. They found people often skipped a year and decided they wanted the "missing" revenue. There answer is to sell the version you "own" as of the date they process your order. You're allowed a full year of updates. However, if you don't continue the subscription then your version automatically rolls back to the version as of your purchase. You lose all the fixes and updates you've been using during the year.

buildfocus 2y ago

Why don't you do subscription? I've heard plenty of arguments on the 'financial tools to manage them are bad' (forget about them, hard to cancel) but few against 'paying money proportional to how much I use the product'. As a general concept that seems reasonable to me - if you use a product for 10 years, it's fair to pay more than somebody who uses it for a couple of months. In a world where finance improves (more subs via Apple Pay et al, more banks like Revolut that show & allow unilaterally blocking any given recurring charge) would you still avoid them?

sam_goody 2y ago
- It's hard to convince my boss to create a subscription. - I don't want to become hostage to monthly payments - if I don't pay one month my whole workflow is messed over, so I have to continue (vs. otherwise I can slowly trade it out of my workflow, and/or look for alternatives) - Its hard for me to mentally grok how much I am paying monthly on subscriptions. - I never cancel, because inertia. - I am not sure if this is something that justifies a monthly subscription, and two weeks is too little time for me to invest in changing my workflow to accommodate it. - I hate subscriptions (this is an emotional thing, so you could tell me to get a shrink. But I suspect I am not the only one). I feel like I am missing even bigger reasons, but /rant