8 ms·

Tim, don't kill my vibe

32 points by retskrad 2y ago

ramesh31 2y ago
Keep up the good fight, Tim. The App Store is our one saving grace from the festering nightmare that is literally every other app store in existence. It's one of the primary reasons I stick with iOS. Their curation process, for better or worse, is one of the last remaining good faith pro-consumer efforts I can even think of from a large corp.
- Arkanum 2y ago
  Surely there is a middle ground where its at least possible to install apps that apple haven't approved[1]? I also like the idea of the _higher_ bar that the app store is supposed to have (not that this bar is always met), but the lack of any alternative is really crappy. [1]: https://atp.fm/628 https://atp.fm/628 & https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/114043540322770608 https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/114043540322770608
- poisonborz 2y ago
  > Apple app store review process "good faith pro-consumer effort" Comedy gold here! What if they would trust the users to install whatever they wish (from other sources) and THEN provide this marvellous service in addition?
- chasil 2y ago
  If you become the owner of a Pebble watch (I am not), then your perspective may shift. Their curation is thorough, but somewhat biased. Nobody is perfect. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43401245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43401245
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  Steam's "app" store seems pretty good to me. Not to mention other app stores for game consoles such as Xbox, PS, and Nintendo as well as the Meta Quest. If the Play store is bad it's because Android is bad, not because the store is bad in and of itself. I had decent experiences with the app store back in my Salesforce days, as much as that seems a different life.
  - pchristensen 2y ago
    Those stores are more locked down than the Apple App Store.
- thefz 2y ago
  There are heaps of garbage in it as well as malware and other stuff.
_1tem 2y ago
Apple has been really slow and dumb with AI, but I believe they are still in the best position to make the best use of it. They have the best hardware, the best vertical integration, and the best ecosystem across Mac/iPhone/iPad/Watch. Give it some more time, Apple has always been late, but I still trust they will deliver the best experience in the end. It may take some shake-ups and heads rolling, but they'll get there.
- thefz 2y ago
  Like for everything else they will let others fail, cherry pick what they want when the technology is mature, then say they invented it and call it "magic".
thefourthchime 2y ago
So true. It took me five times longer to get my app on the App Store than it did to vibe code it.
- Avshalom 2y ago
  good
- jayd16 2y ago
  Just ask the AI to vibe-release it or something.
  - thefourthchime 2y ago
    I wish. You have to do a little bit of an Xcode, but then there's a shit ton of form filling out. You have to do in the App Store Connect. A lot of it's annoying EU regulation legal crap too.
PaulHoule 2y ago
In my experience, web applications make good iPad applications. And if you hit WCAG AAA standards they even make good XR applications for the Meta Quest 3. I don't have much interest in learning how to make iOS-only apps, not least because the app store puts the brakes on plain-ordinary software development, never mind vibe coding.
kermatt 2y ago
Despite the varying opinions about Apple's App Store policies, I am not sure a super quick path from idea to install is a good approach. The result could be a tsunami of AI generates trash apps obscuring those that have actual utility.
- whywhywhywhy 2y ago
  > The result could be a tsunami of AI generates trash apps obscuring those that have actual utility. The iOS app store has already been a human made tsunami of trash obscuring actual utility for over a decade. We're well past that point, the idea that the review system was about setting a bar for quality dissipated about three years into the store.
skybrian 2y ago
A trend towards more web apps (versus native) doesn’t seem like a bad thing? If it gets any traction then you can think about native.
- ericmay 2y ago
  Why would a trend toward more web apps be seen as a good thing?
  - jollyllama 2y ago
    Web apps run on everything. If it's good enough for your needs, just do that.
    - ericmay 2y ago
      > Web apps run on everything. If you're building something like Facebook where you want your site on everything from a smart watch to a desktop PC to a car that makes sense to me. But aside from that, why is making sure your application can run on "everything" a goal? It kind of reminds me of when someone makes a new physical product, and wants to make sure it's carried at every retailer, and usually when that happens the quality of the product suffers in a race toward the bottom. The best producers of goods tend to not follow this model, however.
      - rchaud 2y ago
        Because it's an enormous waste of time writing code, doing QA and managing updates for multiple different platforms. Web apps inside a headless Chromium container is how many many "mobile apps" are built these days.
        ericmay 2y ago
        It's also an enormous waste of time building really great products when you can cut corners and sell things very cheaply, maybe even create things like single-use disposable t-shirts. Why is this any different? I guess you can argue that web apps are superior or on-par with something like maybe an iOS specific app, but I'm not sure that's true. Many of the apps I've come across perform best when they're built for the platform they operate on. I can usually (not always) tell when I'm using a web app because the experience kind of sucks. But even if they're on par, let's say you can run your app everywhere including a smart watch - is that really the goal?
dleeftink 2y ago
> it’s simply too hard to distribute software even to your own devices, let alone someone else’s As the author said multiple times, again, this isn't new. That developer pushback hasn't resulted in any meaningful change to the developer experience over the years, speaks volumes of where the company's allegiances lie.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pclowes 2y ago
Does somebody have an example of a good app made by vibe coding? I keep hearing this and while I am sure its great for prototyping and exploration I just don't have any examples I would be happy to use frequently. I wonder if vibe coding is a false economy? I am personally not excited to use tools and products thoughtlessly glopped together.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  Like everything else online, it's a social media trend/meme. Someone makes a social media post and it gets dopamine clicks and now others want in on the dopamine clicks so they too jump into social media circle jerk. I also feel thesea re the kinds of trends mediocre influence programmers like jumping on. So they live vibe code to show how hip and in the know they are by adopting new ideas and tech when in fact they are padding out their social channels with ad delivery schlock.
- rchaud 2y ago
  "Vibe coding" exists on the same spiritual plane as "Robinhood options trader" and "Twitch entrepreneur". Attaching one's earning potential to the strength of a platform that's often profiled in the media.
- expensive_news 2y ago
  I think this is the biggest problem with this post. Sure, I can definitely see how it might be fun to make an app in a day or two and release it to yourself and a couple friends. But any app that a decent number of people would want to download and use probably won’t be ’vibe coded’, any polished app made by a large corporation certainly won’t be. The author states that developers will flee Apple because of this friction, but developers will go where the customers are, and I’m not sure a meaningful number of customers care about this.
rchaud 2y ago
> I recently built a small iOS app for myself. I can install it on my phone directly from Xcode but it expires after seven days because I’m using a free Apple Developer account. I’m not trying to avoid paying Apple, but there’s enough friction involved in switching to a paid account that I simply haven’t been bothered. Nope, screw that. I am trying to avoid paying Apple, considering I already paid them once for the phone. Web apps > all. It's the one thing that actually meets the "write once, run anywhere" condition.
- pclowes 2y ago
  Amen, I am so sick of the appificiation of everything. Just use a web app. Really annoying that major sites make their sites buggy and brittle seemingly on purpose. Eg: reddit is terrible to use on mobile web and I suspect they make it so on purpose to drive app adoption but why would I ever want or need an app for Reddit?!
  - _mlbt 2y ago
    I use old.reddit.com for the handful of subreddits that I still follow that haven’t become excessively political. It’s a much better UX than new Reddit.
- _mlbt 2y ago
  A lot of people take issue with the Apple Developer account fee, but it’s really not that bad. To put it in perspective, at $99/year it comes out to just over $0.27/day. That’s a pretty cheap hobby. I certainly spend way more than that on my woodworking hobby.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - yurishimo 2y ago
    The problem is the principle of the thing. I shouldn’t have to pay to develop an app to run on my own device. I can see an argument for locking features like test flight and distribution behind the paywall, but I should be able to run an app that I develop by myself onto a device that I own with no restrictions.
thefz 2y ago
Never read the "vibe coding" original tweet, holy sh the golden age for hackers is coming.

32 points by retskrad 2y ago

Keep up the good fight, Tim. The App Store is our one saving grace from the festering nightmare that is literally every other app store in existence. It's one of the primary reasons I stick with iOS. Their curation process, for better or worse, is one of the last remaining good faith pro-consumer efforts I can even think of from a large corp.

Arkanum 2y ago
Surely there is a middle ground where its at least possible to install apps that apple haven't approved[1]? I also like the idea of the _higher_ bar that the app store is supposed to have (not that this bar is always met), but the lack of any alternative is really crappy. [1]: https://atp.fm/628 https://atp.fm/628 & https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/114043540322770608 https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/114043540322770608
poisonborz 2y ago
> Apple app store review process "good faith pro-consumer effort" Comedy gold here! What if they would trust the users to install whatever they wish (from other sources) and THEN provide this marvellous service in addition?
chasil 2y ago
If you become the owner of a Pebble watch (I am not), then your perspective may shift. Their curation is thorough, but somewhat biased. Nobody is perfect. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43401245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43401245
PaulHoule 2y ago
Steam's "app" store seems pretty good to me. Not to mention other app stores for game consoles such as Xbox, PS, and Nintendo as well as the Meta Quest. If the Play store is bad it's because Android is bad, not because the store is bad in and of itself. I had decent experiences with the app store back in my Salesforce days, as much as that seems a different life.
- pchristensen 2y ago
  Those stores are more locked down than the Apple App Store.
thefz 2y ago
There are heaps of garbage in it as well as malware and other stuff.

_1tem 2y ago

Apple has been really slow and dumb with AI, but I believe they are still in the best position to make the best use of it. They have the best hardware, the best vertical integration, and the best ecosystem across Mac/iPhone/iPad/Watch. Give it some more time, Apple has always been late, but I still trust they will deliver the best experience in the end. It may take some shake-ups and heads rolling, but they'll get there.

thefz 2y ago
Like for everything else they will let others fail, cherry pick what they want when the technology is mature, then say they invented it and call it "magic".

thefourthchime 2y ago

So true. It took me five times longer to get my app on the App Store than it did to vibe code it.

Avshalom 2y ago
good
jayd16 2y ago
Just ask the AI to vibe-release it or something.
- thefourthchime 2y ago
  I wish. You have to do a little bit of an Xcode, but then there's a shit ton of form filling out. You have to do in the App Store Connect. A lot of it's annoying EU regulation legal crap too.

PaulHoule 2y ago

In my experience, web applications make good iPad applications. And if you hit WCAG AAA standards they even make good XR applications for the Meta Quest 3. I don't have much interest in learning how to make iOS-only apps, not least because the app store puts the brakes on plain-ordinary software development, never mind vibe coding.

kermatt 2y ago

Despite the varying opinions about Apple's App Store policies, I am not sure a super quick path from idea to install is a good approach. The result could be a tsunami of AI generates trash apps obscuring those that have actual utility.

whywhywhywhy 2y ago
> The result could be a tsunami of AI generates trash apps obscuring those that have actual utility. The iOS app store has already been a human made tsunami of trash obscuring actual utility for over a decade. We're well past that point, the idea that the review system was about setting a bar for quality dissipated about three years into the store.

skybrian 2y ago

A trend towards more web apps (versus native) doesn’t seem like a bad thing? If it gets any traction then you can think about native.

ericmay 2y ago
Why would a trend toward more web apps be seen as a good thing?
- jollyllama 2y ago
  Web apps run on everything. If it's good enough for your needs, just do that.
  - ericmay 2y ago
    > Web apps run on everything. If you're building something like Facebook where you want your site on everything from a smart watch to a desktop PC to a car that makes sense to me. But aside from that, why is making sure your application can run on "everything" a goal? It kind of reminds me of when someone makes a new physical product, and wants to make sure it's carried at every retailer, and usually when that happens the quality of the product suffers in a race toward the bottom. The best producers of goods tend to not follow this model, however.
    - rchaud 2y ago
      Because it's an enormous waste of time writing code, doing QA and managing updates for multiple different platforms. Web apps inside a headless Chromium container is how many many "mobile apps" are built these days.
      - ericmay 2y ago
        It's also an enormous waste of time building really great products when you can cut corners and sell things very cheaply, maybe even create things like single-use disposable t-shirts. Why is this any different? I guess you can argue that web apps are superior or on-par with something like maybe an iOS specific app, but I'm not sure that's true. Many of the apps I've come across perform best when they're built for the platform they operate on. I can usually (not always) tell when I'm using a web app because the experience kind of sucks. But even if they're on par, let's say you can run your app everywhere including a smart watch - is that really the goal?

dleeftink 2y ago

> it’s simply too hard to distribute software even to your own devices, let alone someone else’s As the author said multiple times, again, this isn't new. That developer pushback hasn't resulted in any meaningful change to the developer experience over the years, speaks volumes of where the company's allegiances lie.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pclowes 2y ago

Does somebody have an example of a good app made by vibe coding? I keep hearing this and while I am sure its great for prototyping and exploration I just don't have any examples I would be happy to use frequently. I wonder if vibe coding is a false economy? I am personally not excited to use tools and products thoughtlessly glopped together.

MisterTea 2y ago
Like everything else online, it's a social media trend/meme. Someone makes a social media post and it gets dopamine clicks and now others want in on the dopamine clicks so they too jump into social media circle jerk. I also feel thesea re the kinds of trends mediocre influence programmers like jumping on. So they live vibe code to show how hip and in the know they are by adopting new ideas and tech when in fact they are padding out their social channels with ad delivery schlock.
rchaud 2y ago
"Vibe coding" exists on the same spiritual plane as "Robinhood options trader" and "Twitch entrepreneur". Attaching one's earning potential to the strength of a platform that's often profiled in the media.
expensive_news 2y ago
I think this is the biggest problem with this post. Sure, I can definitely see how it might be fun to make an app in a day or two and release it to yourself and a couple friends. But any app that a decent number of people would want to download and use probably won’t be ’vibe coded’, any polished app made by a large corporation certainly won’t be. The author states that developers will flee Apple because of this friction, but developers will go where the customers are, and I’m not sure a meaningful number of customers care about this.

rchaud 2y ago

> I recently built a small iOS app for myself. I can install it on my phone directly from Xcode but it expires after seven days because I’m using a free Apple Developer account. I’m not trying to avoid paying Apple, but there’s enough friction involved in switching to a paid account that I simply haven’t been bothered. Nope, screw that. I am trying to avoid paying Apple, considering I already paid them once for the phone. Web apps > all. It's the one thing that actually meets the "write once, run anywhere" condition.

pclowes 2y ago
Amen, I am so sick of the appificiation of everything. Just use a web app. Really annoying that major sites make their sites buggy and brittle seemingly on purpose. Eg: reddit is terrible to use on mobile web and I suspect they make it so on purpose to drive app adoption but why would I ever want or need an app for Reddit?!
- _mlbt 2y ago
  I use old.reddit.com for the handful of subreddits that I still follow that haven’t become excessively political. It’s a much better UX than new Reddit.
_mlbt 2y ago
A lot of people take issue with the Apple Developer account fee, but it’s really not that bad. To put it in perspective, at $99/year it comes out to just over $0.27/day. That’s a pretty cheap hobby. I certainly spend way more than that on my woodworking hobby.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- yurishimo 2y ago
  The problem is the principle of the thing. I shouldn’t have to pay to develop an app to run on my own device. I can see an argument for locking features like test flight and distribution behind the paywall, but I should be able to run an app that I develop by myself onto a device that I own with no restrictions.

thefz 2y ago

Never read the "vibe coding" original tweet, holy sh the golden age for hackers is coming.