3 ms·

Seems like the painful point of sodium-ion is mainly the weight/size (per unit of power)... Is that something that can catch up, or is it simply a density issu

Seems like the painful point of sodium-ion is mainly the weight/size (per unit of power)... Is that something that can catch up, or is it simply a density issue that can't be terribly optimized? Right now it looks like it takes ~75% more space for the equivalent power... after two decades like Lithium-ion has had, can that reach current density/size for the same power, or will it hit a cap? Still nice to see a battery tech hit the market.

hadlock 2y ago
The big deal is it's made out of sodium. Anyone with access to sea water (which is full of Na + Cl) can make these batteries, and it's unlikely we're going to run out of sea water in the near future, or even next 3 billion years. Sodium batteries will probably be the go-to for grid scale battery in (wild guess) ten years and some of the ultra-cheap electronics. Sodium, Li-ion and lifepo4 all have significant overlap in the 2.5-3.7v range so there's a lot of potential for compatibility/interoperability Compare with lithium batteries, which currently there's only a handful of high quality lithium deposits that are convenient to be mined
- anticorporate 2y ago
  > it's unlikely we're going to run out of sea water in the near future, or even next 3 billion years. I hate to break it to you like this, but the oceans will evaporate in about a billion years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth We should still have the sodium, though.
  - avmich 2y ago
    Well, ozone hole was supposed to increase and engulf the whole planet, but... I'm sure this is a long enough time to avoid predictions.
- yetihehe 2y ago
  Sometimes we even treat sodium chloride as leftover byproduct[1]. "[...]as of August 2016, it covered 98 hectares (240 acres) and contained approximately 201 million tonnes of salt, with another 900 tonnes being added every hour and 7.2 million tonnes a year." 7 Megatonnes of unused salt a year. The problem with using sodium from that mountain - what to do with leftover chlorine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kali
lightedman 2y ago
Sodium is huge and heavy compared to Lithium, at almost quadruple everything, and then it has 3 valence rings instead of 2 compared to lithium. The density issue is very much limited by this, in a physical sense.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
Lithium on paper has better energy density because of where the element sits on the periodic table. Sodium is pretty close though. So, it's unlikely to push lithium out of the market for a lot of use cases. Both chemistries are likely to continue to improve. And sodium ion is still pretty new. There might be some solid state batteries based on sodium ion at some point. Lithium ion solid state batteries are much closer to market ready (multiple manufacturers have announced product roll outs over the next few years). For a lot of use cases, cost and safety might be more important than energy density. There are a lot of different chemistries at this point. This device is a bit on the heavy side but not overly so. 350 grams is not that heavy. Probably price and longevity are more decisive factors for people that would buy this. And the safety is a nice bonus.
- aredox 2y ago
  >Lithium on paper has better energy density because of where the element sits on the periodic table. Sodium is pretty close though. So, it's unlikely to push lithium out of the market for a lot of use cases. With less thermal management problems, maybe the packaging of sodium-based batteries may end up turning better (lighter, more compact) than lithium ones. That is a way how in theory it is worse, but in practice it isn't so.

hadlock 2y ago

The big deal is it's made out of sodium. Anyone with access to sea water (which is full of Na + Cl) can make these batteries, and it's unlikely we're going to run out of sea water in the near future, or even next 3 billion years. Sodium batteries will probably be the go-to for grid scale battery in (wild guess) ten years and some of the ultra-cheap electronics. Sodium, Li-ion and lifepo4 all have significant overlap in the 2.5-3.7v range so there's a lot of potential for compatibility/interoperability Compare with lithium batteries, which currently there's only a handful of high quality lithium deposits that are convenient to be mined

anticorporate 2y ago
> it's unlikely we're going to run out of sea water in the near future, or even next 3 billion years. I hate to break it to you like this, but the oceans will evaporate in about a billion years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth We should still have the sodium, though.
- avmich 2y ago
  Well, ozone hole was supposed to increase and engulf the whole planet, but... I'm sure this is a long enough time to avoid predictions.
yetihehe 2y ago
Sometimes we even treat sodium chloride as leftover byproduct[1]. "[...]as of August 2016, it covered 98 hectares (240 acres) and contained approximately 201 million tonnes of salt, with another 900 tonnes being added every hour and 7.2 million tonnes a year." 7 Megatonnes of unused salt a year. The problem with using sodium from that mountain - what to do with leftover chlorine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kali

lightedman 2y ago

Sodium is huge and heavy compared to Lithium, at almost quadruple everything, and then it has 3 valence rings instead of 2 compared to lithium. The density issue is very much limited by this, in a physical sense.

jillesvangurp 2y ago

Lithium on paper has better energy density because of where the element sits on the periodic table. Sodium is pretty close though. So, it's unlikely to push lithium out of the market for a lot of use cases. Both chemistries are likely to continue to improve. And sodium ion is still pretty new. There might be some solid state batteries based on sodium ion at some point. Lithium ion solid state batteries are much closer to market ready (multiple manufacturers have announced product roll outs over the next few years). For a lot of use cases, cost and safety might be more important than energy density. There are a lot of different chemistries at this point. This device is a bit on the heavy side but not overly so. 350 grams is not that heavy. Probably price and longevity are more decisive factors for people that would buy this. And the safety is a nice bonus.

aredox 2y ago
>Lithium on paper has better energy density because of where the element sits on the periodic table. Sodium is pretty close though. So, it's unlikely to push lithium out of the market for a lot of use cases. With less thermal management problems, maybe the packaging of sodium-based batteries may end up turning better (lighter, more compact) than lithium ones. That is a way how in theory it is worse, but in practice it isn't so.