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Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your ph

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it. I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding. Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.

ano-ther 2y ago
Oh yes. Got an e-bike with a Bosch controller. Have to click away the app advertisement every time before I can use the bike. And the app requires registration. I have the strong suspicion that as soon as I do that, the bike will only work with my phone and start locking out my family members from using it.
- Filligree 2y ago
  Other way around. They'll try to upsell you on a 5 euro feature that locks the bike to your phone and prevents family members (or thieves) from using it. Though since almost no ebikes do that, it doesn't work to reduce theft. Not much point in the app unless you want to transfer routes to a map app on the head unit, though.
  - consp 2y ago
    Like with some cars, they then get sold for parts or there is a hack to work around it. I just put a gps tracker in the battery to get insurance money since the cops will do nothing (but will if you go after you own bike to stop you from trespassing).
- hyperman1 2y ago
  My bosch ebike controller is a very lousy timekeeper, and the only way to set the clock is with an app.
consp 2y ago
> I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. Don't know where you are but in most countries that would be a valid reason to return it at any time you found it out. They lied to get your money, willfully is almost never a requirement.
- kube-system 2y ago
  Yeah, misrepresentation is basic contract law stuff that would be generally valid in the US too, but: 1. there's probably no evidence of it 2. the workers at the store will deny it 3. the workers at the store likely have no grasp of contract law and will insist on whatever their store policy is 4. hiring a lawyer to return a dishwasher is a waste of time for most anyone knowledgable enough to know that this is a valid legal issue
  - theturtletalks 2y ago
    I will never buy anything Bosch again after reading this thread. What other reason could Bosch have for hiding this functionality behind a website and user account if not to monetize it down the line or worse, bring more of the functionality behind a paywall. We already saw what happened with HP charging to print and even the recent Chromecast outage where something that should be handled locally is pinging back to Google and then working.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      I think this is annoying, but given that the basic functionality works, it personally wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me. I don't normally do anything fancy with the settings on my dishwasher, I just want it to wash the dishes. I'd rather have a dishwasher that puts delay and eco mode behind an app, than some shitty dishwasher that doesn't clean the dishes well on the "normal" setting.
      - amiga386 2y ago
        This reminds me of the EU regulations, which not only: 1. _require_ dishwashers to have an Eco mode, not locked behind anything, but also 2. _require_ Eco mode to be the default. If you buy a dishwasher in the EU and turn it on, and press "start", it'll be on Eco mode, the mode that uses the least water/power. If you don't care about the dishwasher other than to turn it on, and it works for you, then everybody wins. If it doesn't wash as much as you'd like, or takes longer thank you'd like, you can still have all the other dishwasher modes (express, intensive, etc.). The whole point of the regulation is to make the default mode the most energy efficient. I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.
MarkusWandel 2y ago
I've run into amazing customer service when I've contacted companies in Germany about stuff. For example, a 1960s vintage pressure cooker (Sikkomat) handed down from my mom. I wrote the manufacturer, asking about how the secondary safety works, and they replied saying regrettably the manual is out of print, but here's a photocopy, enclosed. So with Bosch, see if you can find a German address/feedback form. Don't worry, they'll understand English.
averageRoyalty 2y ago
In Australia you're not required to keep the packaging, and the company you bought it from must cover your shipping costs. This would constitute a Major Problem[1]. 1. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-service-you-bought/repair-replace-refund-cancel https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-...
- teruakohatu 2y ago
  That is a really good system you have over there. I suspect the company would just respond “the dishwasher is working fine the owner just refuses to enable features as per the manual”.
  - nextts 2y ago
    Take them to court then! Get a group action or just small claims it. Do a CC charge back. They really can't deliver garbage. In 10 years that appliance may not connect to your wifi if the scheme has changed e.g. 2.4Ghz is dropped or something.
- dylan604 2y ago
  <absoluteTotalTangent> I read Australia<snip>Major Problem, and I immediately had the Koxbox track pop into my head. Naturally, it's easiest to find it on YT[0]. I never did take the time to look up where the sample came from, not what the full audio would say. I just assumed that Australians dutifully ignored it when heard as much as 'murikans ignored the FBI warnings at the head of VHS tapes--later DVDs. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590 </absoluteTotalTangent>
  - peterldowns 2y ago
    bit of a banger, thanks for the recommendation
nextts 2y ago
Bosch knows how to perfect asshole design. On some of their ovens there is a secret key sequence (like game cheat) to get the buttons working again. Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Or have a defunct oven. But it is not public info they have released (but had been leaked on YT) So they have software with a bug and a workaround they won't tell you about. Ideally they should recall these ovens and pay for a replacement install.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Is this legal? It seems like an excellent case for a state attorney general to sue them. At least extract a settlement with promise to repair the software bug.
- WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
  I don't believe this. It's illegal in many countries. No way a large German (after Dieselgate they all are very cautious) company like Bosch would make such a stupid move. If they did they'd face countless lawsuits and a ban in many countries (first would be the USA).
  - colechristensen 2y ago
    The only thing I have ever heard about Bosch major appliances is that people hate them.
    - Tarq0n 2y ago
      Their washing machines and dryers are best in class IMO. At least in Europe they still have a reputation for quality.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      I don't know where you've heard this. As a European when I hear Bosch I think reliability and quality. I'd much rather buy a Bosch dishwasher/washing machine over any other brand, wifi or no wifi.
Aurornis 2y ago
> by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. > you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you. Which functions? This is a really confusing post without knowing what those functions are.
- dreamcompiler 2y ago
  TFA made it pretty clear that rinse cycle, delayed start, and eco mode require the app.
- dorfsmay 2y ago
  On my model "deep cleaning" of the dishwasher, some other functions I think, but that I didn't care for.
pokstad 2y ago
That’s really unfortunate considering they are a top rated dishwasher with historically basic feature sets on their products. My Bosch doesn’t even have an LCD display on it.
ensignavenger 2y ago
Sounds not so much like a Bosch problem as a retailer problem. It was the retailer that lied to you about the machine.
- like_any_other 2y ago
  Requiring internet for features that don't need the internet is a manufacturer problem, no matter what any retailer says or doesn't say.
  - ensignavenger 2y ago
    I'll grant you that, but many other manufacturers are doing that too. I avoid buying those models. If it says "wifi", I avoid it like the plague.
tzs 2y ago
I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no. I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine. Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can get reports in the app of water and energy use. I'd actually like that, so decided to give it WiFi access. I then found out that the WM3400CW does in fact not have WiFi. I think it might be the only current LG washing machine that does not have WiFi. I suspect that Consumer Reports got confused because it does have LG's "Smart Diagnosis" feature, which gives you diagnostic reports in the LG app. The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- OkGoDoIt 2y ago
  That sounds perfect. This needs to go on a list for the next time I need to replace a dishwasher.
- exabrial 2y ago
  Literally none of that requires cloud access though to accomplish that task.
  - exabrial 2y ago
    And apologies, my frustration isn't directed at you
- sureIy 2y ago
  This sounds like great use of technology if you ask me. The only thing I'd complain about is that data would not be E2E encrypted :)
Nursie 2y ago
Is this just an american thing/model? I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start. I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about. I love Bosch stuff and will continue to buy it, certainly their series 6 and 8 stuff that's made in Germany - great quality and reliable IMHO. Honestly it seems like there's just been a poor design decision here, to export the full set of controls to an app rather than on the machine, rather than some sort of fundamental sin. It certainly raises questions of what happens if/when they drop support, but another poster below mentions that the app works locally after initial cloud setup. Maybe just avoid this model...
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  The previous generation of Bosch dishwashers in the US were WiFi free. The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything. No idea what the state is of their appliances sold in other markets. As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance) does their best to ignore them.
  - darkwater 2y ago
    > The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything I'm no dishwasher expert and I guess they did their homework but over a period of 10 years, how can be cheaper to remove the local functionality, add a wifi chip, redo the manuals, and pay for the datacenter costs?
    - harvey9 2y ago
      I would guess they used cheaper materials for the moving parts and case.
    - 2y ago
jbm 2y ago
Literally have a Bosch dishwasher that has none of this Wifi garbage. It is amazing and super low sound compared to the 10 year old one that self destructed and nearly wrecked my basement bedroom (and the electrical panel). Strongly recommended, would buy it again - as long as they don't have any insane IoT garbage included.
- jajko 2y ago
  Yeah with most appliances its... not smart to go for highest of their ranges. Way too many functionalities crammed into 1 device just to justify much higher price. All want to be online to do what... pester you with notifications and updates? I love Bosch, all the stuff we have from them works perfectly many years after buying. Similar for Siemens. But for me - AEG, Whirlpool and Electrolux are the crappiest of the crappiest stuff I've experienced, those brands are banned at my home. But there is the trick - go for highest offline-only range, which is normally in the middle or just above middle of the range. Best value for money. Plus I couldn't care less of some online features, don't need them, hate them, its just a ticking bomb regardless of manufacturer. Same as recently discussed here Samsung HW-Q990D surround soundbar update bricking the devices for some. Why the heck would I ever want to update surround speakers which work perfectly fine now? Some sort of OCD out of hands? They never add anything important with such updates, and the general risk is not worth doing it. Plus avoiding not-another-stupid-app-in-phone syndrome.
  - dagw 2y ago
    Yeah with most appliances its... not smart to go for highest of their ranges. Often the parts you actually care about are the same among most of the products in a range. When looking at Miele dishwashers recently they all had the same core dish washing mechanics, and all you got when moving to the highest end model was some superficial design changes, an app and that the door popped open once it was done.
boringg 2y ago
Totally different experience. Bosch dish washer 800 series - fantastic, clean and quiet. No need for wireless if i don’t want it and no blocked features. Have other appliances - well made, sturdy and made to last. I wont say it was the cheapest option but i typically pay for a balance of quality, value and privacy.
- fransje26 2y ago
  Yes, but that's the $400-more-expensive model they mention in the article, with the 7 segment display. Which is a model at least 40% more expensive than the 500 series they bought.
  - boringg 2y ago
    Yup you are correct. I agree with article thats BS to gate keep functionality through cloud access requirements and boy am I happy that I bought the 800 series. That said I don't like contributing to the business model of paying for privacy - seems broken.
    - fransje26 2y ago
      > That said I don't like contributing to the business model of paying for privacy - seems broken. I fully agree. But to be fair, in a other comment someone linked to a website [0] explaining that the app could be used without connection to internet. So in this case perhaps Bosch didn't have as much of a malicious intent as originally thought. Quote from the link: However, [..], the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network. [0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/#no-cloud-mode https://trmm.net/homeconnect/#no-cloud-mode
forgetfreeman 2y ago
Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind and washes dishes better than any other non-industrial dishwasher I've ever used. 10/10, would recommend, will buy again.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  > Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind Absolutely bullshit. If you are a dishwasher without any network connectivity, how are you posting comments on the internet, Mr Bosch?
  - forgetfreeman 2y ago
    *makes unconvincing rinse cycle noises
- Arrowmaster 2y ago
  According to Wirecutter, they pulled Bosch from their recommendations after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023. You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company, not caring about looking into the current state of what they are producing?
  - forgetfreeman 2y ago
    > You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company Absolutely. Companies that make bullshit products very rarely get their act together, so why wouldn't brand loyalty be a thing when one encounters a quality product? > after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023 That is news to me. If true my next dishwasher is going to be a Hobart from the used restaurant equipment shop up the way. Incidentally I just looked into it and Bosch claims that their HomeConnect enabled dishwashers function just fine with no internet connection, so there is that.
    - alpaca128 2y ago
Svip 2y ago
These days, Bosch is wholly owned by Siemens. And their appliances are basically the same. Except Bosch is now their experimental branch, where they try out ideas for products. Only those that are successful become Siemens products. So uhm, just buy a Siemens dishwasher, it's unlikely to have an app requirement.
- eisa01 2y ago
  Also Gaggenau and NEFF are BSH group brands They all use HomeConnect https://www.bsh-group.com/ https://www.bsh-group.com/
  - Bad_CRC 2y ago
    and Balay, i'm currently looking to renovate my kitchen right now and you can buy the same appliance in any of the 3 brands (Bosch, Balay and Siemens).
- szszrk 2y ago
  That's completely the other way around and soothsaying :) BSH is a separate entity created 60 years ago by both companies but now fully owned by Bosch. Bosch and Siemens had a joint venture since like 1960's. Around a decade ago Siemens sold out their BSH part of the company to Bosch completely and Bosch still makes some equipment under that brand. Yet still Siemens exist and is completely independent company. Such joint ventures were not unlikely events for companies in that space in Europe. Siemens had parts of the company separated more often. Nokia Siemens Networks is kind of big (they ditched the Siemens name a decade ago), Nokia Siemens had briefly been know for cell phones for instance, Fujitsu Siemens did IT Enterprise hardware and software, PDAs and similar (here Fujitsu also took over and ditched Siemens part of the name). Your buying advice ain't better than the guy's that sold that dishwasher to Jeff.
  - Svip 2y ago
    I have clearly been misinformed then. Though it kind of made sense to me on the surface, because it was hard to fathom why Bosch would tarnish its reputation with such anti-consumer products, whilst leaving the Siemens brand with the less hostile variants.
vladvasiliu 2y ago
This is likely a model number related issue. I have a Siemens, which, as I understand it, is a Bosch with different styling, since none of these brands actually make the appliances, they're just lending their brand to a separate manufacturer (which is still in Germany FWIW). It also has the "home connect" app. I have none of these issues. I have a dedicated button for delayed start on the front of the dishwasher. Dedicated "machine care" button. Not sure what the "rinse cycle" is, so I don't know if it has it, but there's a special rinsing-related button on the front that does something that prolongs the cycle. It also has a dedicated "half load" button. It has buttons for every "useful" cycle, like "eco" which is automatically selected when I turn it on. It's also able to go to a menu of sorts where I can configure water hardness, the quantity of rinsing liquid I want (separately from the hardness setting) and some other things I forgot. The machine was bought new a little less than two years ago and does have the wifi and bluetooth and whatnot. It's also the only appliance I know which supports 5 GHz wifi. The manual also tries to get you to install the app, but it's not needed.
- mgraupner 2y ago
  Bosch and Siemens produce home appliances through B(osch)S(iemens)H Hausgeräte GmbH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte). They are not lending their brand to another manufacturer.
  - account42 2y ago
    That's exactly what they are dong though, they just also each have partial ownership of that manufacturer.
latexr 2y ago
> Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two Where do you live? Pretty sure that in the EU they’d have to take it back, for any reason, if it’s not been 14 days yet. Though the no packaging could pose an issue, yeah.
- account42 2y ago
  14 days no-question returns are only for online orders. In-store pickups have different (local) rules.
fransje26 2y ago
I will high-jack this top-rated comment to link to a comment further below. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297 This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text: However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network. [0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/ https://trmm.net/homeconnect/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kevincox 2y ago
  > They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key What does my offline dishwasher need a long-lived authorization key for?
  - lmz 2y ago
    Maybe it has some embargoed technology and needs to make sure it's not in China or something.
    - kevincox 2y ago
      IANAL but I'm pretty sure the issue is distribution, so as long as they don't sell their dishwasher in China it isn't their problem. If someone buys and resells it in China then the reseller is in trouble. (Obviously it is a bit more complicated if they should know about this reselling but it shouldn't require online activation.)
      - lmz 2y ago
        It's a joke. It's probably made there anyway.
modo_mario 2y ago
I'd leave a bad review on the store as well.
LinuxBender 2y ago
I just had a similar issue with action cameras. My options are GoPro overheats and short battery life, DJI app banned in the store that I would not use regardless, insta360 / akaso which appear to both be the same shell companies and their camera can't even activate without an app despite the vendor promising otherwise. Returned and one starred all that junk. I would like to find a true stand-alone professional fully functional action camera with stabilization, long battery life and built by pros. Without exception I will not use anything that requires a phone or wifi and I don't care how big it is. Even if it's a 200,000 pound excavator, it will be on their doorstep if it requires a phone or wifi some are going this direction and one way or another they will be paying for shipping and my time.
- k31n_n4m3 2y ago
  The Sony RX0 II is a normal camera in an action cam form factor, no app required. Battery life is only about 30 minutes but you can swap batteries.
  - LinuxBender 2y ago
    Thankyou I will research that one.
account42 2y ago
Note that Bosh in this case is a brand of BSH Hausgeräte so if you have reason to boycott them you probably also want to boycott their other home appliance brands, including Siemens and more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_Brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_...
jmyeet 2y ago
This type of comment is common, unfortunately. It amounts to "Don't use [thing] because of [anecdote]". Bosch, in particular, is highly regarded. They also have a wide range. I bought an 800 series 2-3 years ago. I went online to see if anything had changed. You still find the same options: front controls, top controls, different finishes, etc. You can still absolutely buy a dishwasher with manual controls. They're excellent products. Now my model seems to be before Wifi was added although I did buy an LG washer and dryer that has Wifi, which I did actually try and set up and failed. The code and stack in these things is truly awful. AFAICT I couldn't get it to work because my home network is segmented with 2 Wifi access points. Each of them broadcasts my Wifi network on the same SSID with the same credentials so devices use whichever one has the best signal. It doesn't always move routers so it's not as good as, say, a Ubiquiti network, but it's good enough. Anyway, the washer/dryer listed my Wifi network 3 times and failed to connect to it for reasons I never established. The error message was a generic "authorization failed". I think it might've had something to do with DHCP. Possibly my address range or DNS servers. Weirdly, it would connect via a phone hotspot just fine. In the end I gave up. But the point is that the washer/dryer work just fine without Wifi and although I don't have a Wifi-enabled Bosch dishwasher, I very much suspect they do too. Your comment says "it needs to use their website for some functions". What functions, exactly? Would that be notifications for when a load is done? If so, that makes perfect sense. But I bet the dishwasher worked just fine without Wifi.
- geerlingguy 2y ago
  In the linked article, it lists the 6 modes that will not work without the WiFi connection, including Eco mode, Rinse, Self clean, Delayed start, and Half mode.
dukeyukey 2y ago
Genuinely, what about my dishwasher would I want to control from my phone? The only operations I do on it are turn it on (redundant because I need to load it first, which needs me to be there) and check if it's done, mostly redundant because it's not a time-sensitive operation.
mavhc 2y ago
Don't people read manuals before spending $$$ on things? Or is that just me
e40 2y ago
Was all set to purchase a Bosch and the local shopsaid their quality has plummeted in recent years, recommend a Meile for the same price. Was told they get far fewer repair requests with this brand.
- davidee 2y ago
  Wirecutter (NYT) would agree: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash... Requisite archive.ph link: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
- ddoolin 2y ago
  If you can afford it, Miele is definitely the way to go. The premium is quite high but IME you're buying the product, not just the brand.
- usefulcat 2y ago
  That's a shame, we've bought two Bosch dishwashers (two different houses). The second one is 12 years old and still working. Had to replace the pump once, although that problem was almost certainly caused by sediment in our water lines. I like that they've been quiet and reliable, the reliability affirmed by the repair person that replaced the pump.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
samspot 2y ago
I bought a Bosch dishwasher about a year ago and didn't experience any of this. Maybe it depends on the model?

ano-ther 2y ago

Oh yes. Got an e-bike with a Bosch controller. Have to click away the app advertisement every time before I can use the bike. And the app requires registration. I have the strong suspicion that as soon as I do that, the bike will only work with my phone and start locking out my family members from using it.

Filligree 2y ago
Other way around. They'll try to upsell you on a 5 euro feature that locks the bike to your phone and prevents family members (or thieves) from using it. Though since almost no ebikes do that, it doesn't work to reduce theft. Not much point in the app unless you want to transfer routes to a map app on the head unit, though.
- consp 2y ago
  Like with some cars, they then get sold for parts or there is a hack to work around it. I just put a gps tracker in the battery to get insurance money since the cops will do nothing (but will if you go after you own bike to stop you from trespassing).
hyperman1 2y ago
My bosch ebike controller is a very lousy timekeeper, and the only way to set the clock is with an app.

consp 2y ago

> I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. Don't know where you are but in most countries that would be a valid reason to return it at any time you found it out. They lied to get your money, willfully is almost never a requirement.

kube-system 2y ago
Yeah, misrepresentation is basic contract law stuff that would be generally valid in the US too, but: 1. there's probably no evidence of it 2. the workers at the store will deny it 3. the workers at the store likely have no grasp of contract law and will insist on whatever their store policy is 4. hiring a lawyer to return a dishwasher is a waste of time for most anyone knowledgable enough to know that this is a valid legal issue
- theturtletalks 2y ago
  I will never buy anything Bosch again after reading this thread. What other reason could Bosch have for hiding this functionality behind a website and user account if not to monetize it down the line or worse, bring more of the functionality behind a paywall. We already saw what happened with HP charging to print and even the recent Chromecast outage where something that should be handled locally is pinging back to Google and then working.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    I think this is annoying, but given that the basic functionality works, it personally wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me. I don't normally do anything fancy with the settings on my dishwasher, I just want it to wash the dishes. I'd rather have a dishwasher that puts delay and eco mode behind an app, than some shitty dishwasher that doesn't clean the dishes well on the "normal" setting.
    - amiga386 2y ago
      This reminds me of the EU regulations, which not only: 1. _require_ dishwashers to have an Eco mode, not locked behind anything, but also 2. _require_ Eco mode to be the default. If you buy a dishwasher in the EU and turn it on, and press "start", it'll be on Eco mode, the mode that uses the least water/power. If you don't care about the dishwasher other than to turn it on, and it works for you, then everybody wins. If it doesn't wash as much as you'd like, or takes longer thank you'd like, you can still have all the other dishwasher modes (express, intensive, etc.). The whole point of the regulation is to make the default mode the most energy efficient. I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.

MarkusWandel 2y ago

I've run into amazing customer service when I've contacted companies in Germany about stuff. For example, a 1960s vintage pressure cooker (Sikkomat) handed down from my mom. I wrote the manufacturer, asking about how the secondary safety works, and they replied saying regrettably the manual is out of print, but here's a photocopy, enclosed. So with Bosch, see if you can find a German address/feedback form. Don't worry, they'll understand English.

averageRoyalty 2y ago

In Australia you're not required to keep the packaging, and the company you bought it from must cover your shipping costs. This would constitute a Major Problem[1]. 1. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-service-you-bought/repair-replace-refund-cancel https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-...

teruakohatu 2y ago
That is a really good system you have over there. I suspect the company would just respond “the dishwasher is working fine the owner just refuses to enable features as per the manual”.
- nextts 2y ago
  Take them to court then! Get a group action or just small claims it. Do a CC charge back. They really can't deliver garbage. In 10 years that appliance may not connect to your wifi if the scheme has changed e.g. 2.4Ghz is dropped or something.
dylan604 2y ago
<absoluteTotalTangent> I read Australia<snip>Major Problem, and I immediately had the Koxbox track pop into my head. Naturally, it's easiest to find it on YT[0]. I never did take the time to look up where the sample came from, not what the full audio would say. I just assumed that Australians dutifully ignored it when heard as much as 'murikans ignored the FBI warnings at the head of VHS tapes--later DVDs. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590 </absoluteTotalTangent>
- peterldowns 2y ago
  bit of a banger, thanks for the recommendation

nextts 2y ago

Bosch knows how to perfect asshole design. On some of their ovens there is a secret key sequence (like game cheat) to get the buttons working again. Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Or have a defunct oven. But it is not public info they have released (but had been leaked on YT) So they have software with a bug and a workaround they won't tell you about. Ideally they should recall these ovens and pay for a replacement install.

throwaway2037 2y ago
> Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Is this legal? It seems like an excellent case for a state attorney general to sue them. At least extract a settlement with promise to repair the software bug.
WuxiFingerHold 2y ago
I don't believe this. It's illegal in many countries. No way a large German (after Dieselgate they all are very cautious) company like Bosch would make such a stupid move. If they did they'd face countless lawsuits and a ban in many countries (first would be the USA).
- colechristensen 2y ago
  The only thing I have ever heard about Bosch major appliances is that people hate them.
  - Tarq0n 2y ago
    Their washing machines and dryers are best in class IMO. At least in Europe they still have a reputation for quality.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    I don't know where you've heard this. As a European when I hear Bosch I think reliability and quality. I'd much rather buy a Bosch dishwasher/washing machine over any other brand, wifi or no wifi.

Aurornis 2y ago

> by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. > you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you. Which functions? This is a really confusing post without knowing what those functions are.

dreamcompiler 2y ago
TFA made it pretty clear that rinse cycle, delayed start, and eco mode require the app.
dorfsmay 2y ago
On my model "deep cleaning" of the dishwasher, some other functions I think, but that I didn't care for.

pokstad 2y ago

That’s really unfortunate considering they are a top rated dishwasher with historically basic feature sets on their products. My Bosch doesn’t even have an LCD display on it.

ensignavenger 2y ago

Sounds not so much like a Bosch problem as a retailer problem. It was the retailer that lied to you about the machine.

like_any_other 2y ago
Requiring internet for features that don't need the internet is a manufacturer problem, no matter what any retailer says or doesn't say.
- ensignavenger 2y ago
  I'll grant you that, but many other manufacturers are doing that too. I avoid buying those models. If it says "wifi", I avoid it like the plague.

tzs 2y ago

I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no. I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine. Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can get reports in the app of water and energy use. I'd actually like that, so decided to give it WiFi access. I then found out that the WM3400CW does in fact not have WiFi. I think it might be the only current LG washing machine that does not have WiFi. I suspect that Consumer Reports got confused because it does have LG's "Smart Diagnosis" feature, which gives you diagnostic reports in the LG app. The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.

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OkGoDoIt 2y ago
That sounds perfect. This needs to go on a list for the next time I need to replace a dishwasher.
exabrial 2y ago
Literally none of that requires cloud access though to accomplish that task.
- exabrial 2y ago
  And apologies, my frustration isn't directed at you
sureIy 2y ago
This sounds like great use of technology if you ask me. The only thing I'd complain about is that data would not be E2E encrypted :)

Nursie 2y ago

Is this just an american thing/model? I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start. I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about. I love Bosch stuff and will continue to buy it, certainly their series 6 and 8 stuff that's made in Germany - great quality and reliable IMHO. Honestly it seems like there's just been a poor design decision here, to export the full set of controls to an app rather than on the machine, rather than some sort of fundamental sin. It certainly raises questions of what happens if/when they drop support, but another poster below mentions that the app works locally after initial cloud setup. Maybe just avoid this model...

inferiorhuman 2y ago
The previous generation of Bosch dishwashers in the US were WiFi free. The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything. No idea what the state is of their appliances sold in other markets. As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance) does their best to ignore them.
- darkwater 2y ago
  > The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything I'm no dishwasher expert and I guess they did their homework but over a period of 10 years, how can be cheaper to remove the local functionality, add a wifi chip, redo the manuals, and pay for the datacenter costs?
  - harvey9 2y ago
    I would guess they used cheaper materials for the moving parts and case.
  - 2y ago

jbm 2y ago

Literally have a Bosch dishwasher that has none of this Wifi garbage. It is amazing and super low sound compared to the 10 year old one that self destructed and nearly wrecked my basement bedroom (and the electrical panel). Strongly recommended, would buy it again - as long as they don't have any insane IoT garbage included.

jajko 2y ago
Yeah with most appliances its... not smart to go for highest of their ranges. Way too many functionalities crammed into 1 device just to justify much higher price. All want to be online to do what... pester you with notifications and updates? I love Bosch, all the stuff we have from them works perfectly many years after buying. Similar for Siemens. But for me - AEG, Whirlpool and Electrolux are the crappiest of the crappiest stuff I've experienced, those brands are banned at my home. But there is the trick - go for highest offline-only range, which is normally in the middle or just above middle of the range. Best value for money. Plus I couldn't care less of some online features, don't need them, hate them, its just a ticking bomb regardless of manufacturer. Same as recently discussed here Samsung HW-Q990D surround soundbar update bricking the devices for some. Why the heck would I ever want to update surround speakers which work perfectly fine now? Some sort of OCD out of hands? They never add anything important with such updates, and the general risk is not worth doing it. Plus avoiding not-another-stupid-app-in-phone syndrome.
- dagw 2y ago
  Yeah with most appliances its... not smart to go for highest of their ranges. Often the parts you actually care about are the same among most of the products in a range. When looking at Miele dishwashers recently they all had the same core dish washing mechanics, and all you got when moving to the highest end model was some superficial design changes, an app and that the door popped open once it was done.

boringg 2y ago

Totally different experience. Bosch dish washer 800 series - fantastic, clean and quiet. No need for wireless if i don’t want it and no blocked features. Have other appliances - well made, sturdy and made to last. I wont say it was the cheapest option but i typically pay for a balance of quality, value and privacy.

fransje26 2y ago
Yes, but that's the $400-more-expensive model they mention in the article, with the 7 segment display. Which is a model at least 40% more expensive than the 500 series they bought.
- boringg 2y ago
  Yup you are correct. I agree with article thats BS to gate keep functionality through cloud access requirements and boy am I happy that I bought the 800 series. That said I don't like contributing to the business model of paying for privacy - seems broken.
  - fransje26 2y ago
    > That said I don't like contributing to the business model of paying for privacy - seems broken. I fully agree. But to be fair, in a other comment someone linked to a website [0] explaining that the app could be used without connection to internet. So in this case perhaps Bosch didn't have as much of a malicious intent as originally thought. Quote from the link: However, [..], the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network. [0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/#no-cloud-mode https://trmm.net/homeconnect/#no-cloud-mode

forgetfreeman 2y ago

Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind and washes dishes better than any other non-industrial dishwasher I've ever used. 10/10, would recommend, will buy again.

bee_rider 2y ago
> Bosch dishwasher here. Zero network connectivity of any kind Absolutely bullshit. If you are a dishwasher without any network connectivity, how are you posting comments on the internet, Mr Bosch?
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  *makes unconvincing rinse cycle noises
Arrowmaster 2y ago
According to Wirecutter, they pulled Bosch from their recommendations after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023. You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company, not caring about looking into the current state of what they are producing?
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  > You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company Absolutely. Companies that make bullshit products very rarely get their act together, so why wouldn't brand loyalty be a thing when one encounters a quality product? > after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023 That is news to me. If true my next dishwasher is going to be a Hobart from the used restaurant equipment shop up the way. Incidentally I just looked into it and Bosch claims that their HomeConnect enabled dishwashers function just fine with no internet connection, so there is that.
  - alpaca128 2y ago

Svip 2y ago

These days, Bosch is wholly owned by Siemens. And their appliances are basically the same. Except Bosch is now their experimental branch, where they try out ideas for products. Only those that are successful become Siemens products. So uhm, just buy a Siemens dishwasher, it's unlikely to have an app requirement.

eisa01 2y ago
Also Gaggenau and NEFF are BSH group brands They all use HomeConnect https://www.bsh-group.com/ https://www.bsh-group.com/
- Bad_CRC 2y ago
  and Balay, i'm currently looking to renovate my kitchen right now and you can buy the same appliance in any of the 3 brands (Bosch, Balay and Siemens).
szszrk 2y ago
That's completely the other way around and soothsaying :) BSH is a separate entity created 60 years ago by both companies but now fully owned by Bosch. Bosch and Siemens had a joint venture since like 1960's. Around a decade ago Siemens sold out their BSH part of the company to Bosch completely and Bosch still makes some equipment under that brand. Yet still Siemens exist and is completely independent company. Such joint ventures were not unlikely events for companies in that space in Europe. Siemens had parts of the company separated more often. Nokia Siemens Networks is kind of big (they ditched the Siemens name a decade ago), Nokia Siemens had briefly been know for cell phones for instance, Fujitsu Siemens did IT Enterprise hardware and software, PDAs and similar (here Fujitsu also took over and ditched Siemens part of the name). Your buying advice ain't better than the guy's that sold that dishwasher to Jeff.
- Svip 2y ago
  I have clearly been misinformed then. Though it kind of made sense to me on the surface, because it was hard to fathom why Bosch would tarnish its reputation with such anti-consumer products, whilst leaving the Siemens brand with the less hostile variants.

vladvasiliu 2y ago

This is likely a model number related issue. I have a Siemens, which, as I understand it, is a Bosch with different styling, since none of these brands actually make the appliances, they're just lending their brand to a separate manufacturer (which is still in Germany FWIW). It also has the "home connect" app. I have none of these issues. I have a dedicated button for delayed start on the front of the dishwasher. Dedicated "machine care" button. Not sure what the "rinse cycle" is, so I don't know if it has it, but there's a special rinsing-related button on the front that does something that prolongs the cycle. It also has a dedicated "half load" button. It has buttons for every "useful" cycle, like "eco" which is automatically selected when I turn it on. It's also able to go to a menu of sorts where I can configure water hardness, the quantity of rinsing liquid I want (separately from the hardness setting) and some other things I forgot. The machine was bought new a little less than two years ago and does have the wifi and bluetooth and whatnot. It's also the only appliance I know which supports 5 GHz wifi. The manual also tries to get you to install the app, but it's not needed.

mgraupner 2y ago
Bosch and Siemens produce home appliances through B(osch)S(iemens)H Hausgeräte GmbH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte). They are not lending their brand to another manufacturer.
- account42 2y ago
  That's exactly what they are dong though, they just also each have partial ownership of that manufacturer.

latexr 2y ago

> Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two Where do you live? Pretty sure that in the EU they’d have to take it back, for any reason, if it’s not been 14 days yet. Though the no packaging could pose an issue, yeah.

account42 2y ago
14 days no-question returns are only for online orders. In-store pickups have different (local) rules.

fransje26 2y ago

I will high-jack this top-rated comment to link to a comment further below. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297 This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text: However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network. [0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/ https://trmm.net/homeconnect/

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kevincox 2y ago
> They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key What does my offline dishwasher need a long-lived authorization key for?
- lmz 2y ago
  Maybe it has some embargoed technology and needs to make sure it's not in China or something.
  - kevincox 2y ago
    IANAL but I'm pretty sure the issue is distribution, so as long as they don't sell their dishwasher in China it isn't their problem. If someone buys and resells it in China then the reseller is in trouble. (Obviously it is a bit more complicated if they should know about this reselling but it shouldn't require online activation.)
    - lmz 2y ago
      It's a joke. It's probably made there anyway.

modo_mario 2y ago

I'd leave a bad review on the store as well.

LinuxBender 2y ago

I just had a similar issue with action cameras. My options are GoPro overheats and short battery life, DJI app banned in the store that I would not use regardless, insta360 / akaso which appear to both be the same shell companies and their camera can't even activate without an app despite the vendor promising otherwise. Returned and one starred all that junk. I would like to find a true stand-alone professional fully functional action camera with stabilization, long battery life and built by pros. Without exception I will not use anything that requires a phone or wifi and I don't care how big it is. Even if it's a 200,000 pound excavator, it will be on their doorstep if it requires a phone or wifi some are going this direction and one way or another they will be paying for shipping and my time.

k31n_n4m3 2y ago
The Sony RX0 II is a normal camera in an action cam form factor, no app required. Battery life is only about 30 minutes but you can swap batteries.
- LinuxBender 2y ago
  Thankyou I will research that one.

account42 2y ago

Note that Bosh in this case is a brand of BSH Hausgeräte so if you have reason to boycott them you probably also want to boycott their other home appliance brands, including Siemens and more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_Brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_...

jmyeet 2y ago

This type of comment is common, unfortunately. It amounts to "Don't use [thing] because of [anecdote]". Bosch, in particular, is highly regarded. They also have a wide range. I bought an 800 series 2-3 years ago. I went online to see if anything had changed. You still find the same options: front controls, top controls, different finishes, etc. You can still absolutely buy a dishwasher with manual controls. They're excellent products. Now my model seems to be before Wifi was added although I did buy an LG washer and dryer that has Wifi, which I did actually try and set up and failed. The code and stack in these things is truly awful. AFAICT I couldn't get it to work because my home network is segmented with 2 Wifi access points. Each of them broadcasts my Wifi network on the same SSID with the same credentials so devices use whichever one has the best signal. It doesn't always move routers so it's not as good as, say, a Ubiquiti network, but it's good enough. Anyway, the washer/dryer listed my Wifi network 3 times and failed to connect to it for reasons I never established. The error message was a generic "authorization failed". I think it might've had something to do with DHCP. Possibly my address range or DNS servers. Weirdly, it would connect via a phone hotspot just fine. In the end I gave up. But the point is that the washer/dryer work just fine without Wifi and although I don't have a Wifi-enabled Bosch dishwasher, I very much suspect they do too. Your comment says "it needs to use their website for some functions". What functions, exactly? Would that be notifications for when a load is done? If so, that makes perfect sense. But I bet the dishwasher worked just fine without Wifi.

geerlingguy 2y ago
In the linked article, it lists the 6 modes that will not work without the WiFi connection, including Eco mode, Rinse, Self clean, Delayed start, and Half mode.

dukeyukey 2y ago

Genuinely, what about my dishwasher would I want to control from my phone? The only operations I do on it are turn it on (redundant because I need to load it first, which needs me to be there) and check if it's done, mostly redundant because it's not a time-sensitive operation.

mavhc 2y ago

Don't people read manuals before spending $$$ on things? Or is that just me

e40 2y ago

Was all set to purchase a Bosch and the local shopsaid their quality has plummeted in recent years, recommend a Meile for the same price. Was told they get far fewer repair requests with this brand.

davidee 2y ago
Wirecutter (NYT) would agree: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash... Requisite archive.ph link: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
ddoolin 2y ago
If you can afford it, Miele is definitely the way to go. The premium is quite high but IME you're buying the product, not just the brand.
usefulcat 2y ago
That's a shame, we've bought two Bosch dishwashers (two different houses). The second one is 12 years old and still working. Had to replace the pump once, although that problem was almost certainly caused by sediment in our water lines. I like that they've been quiet and reliable, the reliability affirmed by the repair person that replaced the pump.

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samspot 2y ago

I bought a Bosch dishwasher about a year ago and didn't experience any of this. Maybe it depends on the model?