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There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain. I appreciate that you used your clout to make the issue public, but sometimes I worry that it only goes s

There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain. I appreciate that you used your clout to make the issue public, but sometimes I worry that it only goes so far as our little echo chamber.

geerlingguy 2y ago
If it's any consolation, the video I posted on YouTube is getting some traction. If it can get a good number of views, maybe it can at least generate enough impact to cut off a few hundred units of sales. That won't make a massive impact, but it's better than nothing. If Bosch allowed me to update the firmware of my unit to not lock out features, I'd maybe consider doing that locally over an ad-hoc connection. Wish they would've just included Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter instead.
- aaronax 2y ago
  I can almost guarantee that I will now start seeing references to this in dishwasher recommendation threads on forums and Reddit now. And it won't be me doing all of it, I swear! :)
h0l0cube 2y ago
Perhaps there's an opening in the market for an appliance company that brands itself on self-repair and self-hosted connectivity? All most people want is "push button and do the thing as long as I live".
- moepstar 2y ago
  Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I mean, we all know what people say they want and what they'll do when/if they buy something may be two totally different things. And: creating a dishwasher (or $appliance) that does its actual job good enough to be worth buying isn't something that can be hacked up in a weekend or two. Edit to add: maybe - as Bosch pretty much has figured out how to make good diswhasheres - it'd be easier and more approachable to hack, rip out, replace the control electronics. Chances are this is going to work on more model than the one...
  - h0l0cube 2y ago
    The calculation about whether to repair something or not usually hinges around labor and material costs vs replacement cost. The more difficult something is to repair, and the more expensive the components are, the less like it is to be repaired. It's probably also true that high turnover of goods across brands due to early replacement allows for slimmer margins and higher yields, and hence lower cost of purchase. So on the other extreme, make things break more often and sell them cheaper and more often, which seems to be the status quo. The economic problem to solve, then, is how to encourage brands to increase the durability of their goods. There are some review publications that perform stress-testing, but few keep metrics on long-term durability in a real-world setting. At a minimum, I check consumer review sites before I buy just to avoid the worst brands, and there you do see some people coming back after a few years to leave a warning to other people. And perhaps this kind of feedback has some effect. Hopefully people start prizing 'dumb' products, and start leaving bad reviews on products that rely on an internet connection, when they're left stranded after the connection drops out.
PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
I want to know what dishwasher and washing machine Marques Brownlee (mkbhd) uses, and to know that is going to use his clout in this regard ... not to burden him, but he has almost 20M subscribers on YT ...
- alpaca128 2y ago
  I don't know if I want an appliance recommendation from someone who launched a paid subscription app for phone wallpapers. That mindset does not seem compatible with the customer owning what they bought. If there was any influencer I'd want to know that from it's Louis Rossmann.
  - wiether 2y ago
    Louis' dishwasher is a Blackberry ;)
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Make stickers and go put them on the units at the store. Send Bosch a picture of how you've improved their labeling along with a nice note indicating that you'll do it again if they don't change their ways.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  That'd probably get you banned from the store if they find you doing that and at best, it's only going to get the message out to a few customers until the store staff remove the stickers. Jeff's using his internet fame to reach far more people. I previously thought that Bosch were a good brand (only had a blender and a temperature controlled kettle from them though), but now will avoid them.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    Ok, but not all of us have internet fame. I've found that my "here's where to pirate this textbook" stickers are not typically removed. Maybe sellers of dishwashers are more diligent, who knows.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      Fair enough. I do enjoy seeing various subversive stickers put on lampposts etc. Maybe complaining on the internet and putting stickers would be a better tactic, but placing stickers probably takes more effort.
timcobb 2y ago
> There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain Sure it would be nice, but just like all things, not to be pessimistic or fatalistic—the HN rejection of something doesn't practically matter to most companies. I mean, why is it is that Steve Bannon is the loudest voice against technofeudalism today? Why can't we get louder and get other people listening?

There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain. I appreciate that you used your clout to make the issue public, but sometimes I worry that it only goes so far as our little echo chamber.

geerlingguy 2y ago

If it's any consolation, the video I posted on YouTube is getting some traction. If it can get a good number of views, maybe it can at least generate enough impact to cut off a few hundred units of sales. That won't make a massive impact, but it's better than nothing. If Bosch allowed me to update the firmware of my unit to not lock out features, I'd maybe consider doing that locally over an ad-hoc connection. Wish they would've just included Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter instead.

aaronax 2y ago
I can almost guarantee that I will now start seeing references to this in dishwasher recommendation threads on forums and Reddit now. And it won't be me doing all of it, I swear! :)

h0l0cube 2y ago

Perhaps there's an opening in the market for an appliance company that brands itself on self-repair and self-hosted connectivity? All most people want is "push button and do the thing as long as I live".

moepstar 2y ago
Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I mean, we all know what people say they want and what they'll do when/if they buy something may be two totally different things. And: creating a dishwasher (or $appliance) that does its actual job good enough to be worth buying isn't something that can be hacked up in a weekend or two. Edit to add: maybe - as Bosch pretty much has figured out how to make good diswhasheres - it'd be easier and more approachable to hack, rip out, replace the control electronics. Chances are this is going to work on more model than the one...
- h0l0cube 2y ago
  The calculation about whether to repair something or not usually hinges around labor and material costs vs replacement cost. The more difficult something is to repair, and the more expensive the components are, the less like it is to be repaired. It's probably also true that high turnover of goods across brands due to early replacement allows for slimmer margins and higher yields, and hence lower cost of purchase. So on the other extreme, make things break more often and sell them cheaper and more often, which seems to be the status quo. The economic problem to solve, then, is how to encourage brands to increase the durability of their goods. There are some review publications that perform stress-testing, but few keep metrics on long-term durability in a real-world setting. At a minimum, I check consumer review sites before I buy just to avoid the worst brands, and there you do see some people coming back after a few years to leave a warning to other people. And perhaps this kind of feedback has some effect. Hopefully people start prizing 'dumb' products, and start leaving bad reviews on products that rely on an internet connection, when they're left stranded after the connection drops out.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

I want to know what dishwasher and washing machine Marques Brownlee (mkbhd) uses, and to know that is going to use his clout in this regard ... not to burden him, but he has almost 20M subscribers on YT ...

alpaca128 2y ago
I don't know if I want an appliance recommendation from someone who launched a paid subscription app for phone wallpapers. That mindset does not seem compatible with the customer owning what they bought. If there was any influencer I'd want to know that from it's Louis Rossmann.
- wiether 2y ago
  Louis' dishwasher is a Blackberry ;)

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

Make stickers and go put them on the units at the store. Send Bosch a picture of how you've improved their labeling along with a nice note indicating that you'll do it again if they don't change their ways.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
That'd probably get you banned from the store if they find you doing that and at best, it's only going to get the message out to a few customers until the store staff remove the stickers. Jeff's using his internet fame to reach far more people. I previously thought that Bosch were a good brand (only had a blender and a temperature controlled kettle from them though), but now will avoid them.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  Ok, but not all of us have internet fame. I've found that my "here's where to pirate this textbook" stickers are not typically removed. Maybe sellers of dishwashers are more diligent, who knows.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    Fair enough. I do enjoy seeing various subversive stickers put on lampposts etc. Maybe complaining on the internet and putting stickers would be a better tactic, but placing stickers probably takes more effort.

timcobb 2y ago

> There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain Sure it would be nice, but just like all things, not to be pessimistic or fatalistic—the HN rejection of something doesn't practically matter to most companies. I mean, why is it is that Steve Bannon is the loudest voice against technofeudalism today? Why can't we get louder and get other people listening?