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None of this seems to be evidence that the Wrights were first. But I won’t be so cynical to suggest the list is the kind of things that make second systems seco

None of this seems to be evidence that the Wrights were first. But I won’t be so cynical to suggest the list is the kind of things that make second systems second systems. The Wrights are giants in the history of aviation for reasons like those you describe whether or not they were first. From the perspective of their patents and the multi-year monopoly that they exploited with everything from aircraft sales to the military to flying schools being first is certainly critical. Don’t get me wrong, I have been taught the Wrights were first all my life. But I live in the US.

WalterBright 2y ago
The Wrights demonstrated what was needed to fly, and there's no evidence the pretenders had solved those problems. For example, they had flat propellors without an airfoil. This means they needed nearly twice the power. Their engines would have been twice as heavy, too. They didn't have useful flight controls. Their wings looked smaller than the Flyer's. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The Wrights had every bit of evidence needed. None of the others did.
- brudgers 2y ago
  I had never thought to critically consider the story of the Wright brothers until reading your earlier comment and thinking “that’s not evidence they were first.” Sure I had been aware that patents and monopolies were involved in part from reading a book about their flying school[1] when I lived in Alabama. But I didn’t connect the follow the money importance of being first until earlier today. And now I have gone down a bit of rabbit hole. To me, it is clear why Santos=Dumont is worth celebrating in Brazil. Because he was the first person to fly in front of a body of independent experts, we don’t have to accept claims that align with self interest and local newspapers. It seems that the Wright brothers did not fly in public until well after Santos-Dumont had. What really fascinates me is not who was first, but the way in which I always experienced the Wright brothers story. When I read about their flying school, it seemed odd that the planes at the school were “so old fashioned” compared to those of Europe in the 1910’s…and at the larger scale how the Wright brothers story conventionally stops in 1903. So thanks. [1] https://encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/wright-brothers-flying-school/ https://encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/wright-brothers-fl...
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > It seems that the Wright brothers did not fly in public until well after Santos-Dumont had. That's correct. The Wrights were secretive because they wanted to ensure they had the patents locked up before disclosure. But they were smart about ensuring there was a solid trail of evidence of thier invention. Santos Dumont did not have 3-axis controls, though. Neither did the European airplanes that were developed. At one point, the Wrights crated their flyer and went to Europe to demonstrate it. The European airplanes were very difficult to turn (because there were no roll controls). The Wrights just blew them all away by flying in tight, controlled graceful circles. The Europeans immediately redesigned their machines to incorporate roll control.

WalterBright 2y ago

The Wrights demonstrated what was needed to fly, and there's no evidence the pretenders had solved those problems. For example, they had flat propellors without an airfoil. This means they needed nearly twice the power. Their engines would have been twice as heavy, too. They didn't have useful flight controls. Their wings looked smaller than the Flyer's. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The Wrights had every bit of evidence needed. None of the others did.

brudgers 2y ago
I had never thought to critically consider the story of the Wright brothers until reading your earlier comment and thinking “that’s not evidence they were first.” Sure I had been aware that patents and monopolies were involved in part from reading a book about their flying school[1] when I lived in Alabama. But I didn’t connect the follow the money importance of being first until earlier today. And now I have gone down a bit of rabbit hole. To me, it is clear why Santos=Dumont is worth celebrating in Brazil. Because he was the first person to fly in front of a body of independent experts, we don’t have to accept claims that align with self interest and local newspapers. It seems that the Wright brothers did not fly in public until well after Santos-Dumont had. What really fascinates me is not who was first, but the way in which I always experienced the Wright brothers story. When I read about their flying school, it seemed odd that the planes at the school were “so old fashioned” compared to those of Europe in the 1910’s…and at the larger scale how the Wright brothers story conventionally stops in 1903. So thanks. [1] https://encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/wright-brothers-flying-school/ https://encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/wright-brothers-fl...
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > It seems that the Wright brothers did not fly in public until well after Santos-Dumont had. That's correct. The Wrights were secretive because they wanted to ensure they had the patents locked up before disclosure. But they were smart about ensuring there was a solid trail of evidence of thier invention. Santos Dumont did not have 3-axis controls, though. Neither did the European airplanes that were developed. At one point, the Wrights crated their flyer and went to Europe to demonstrate it. The European airplanes were very difficult to turn (because there were no roll controls). The Wrights just blew them all away by flying in tight, controlled graceful circles. The Europeans immediately redesigned their machines to incorporate roll control.