4 ms·

>Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning. But I guess he did g

>Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning. But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? Well, I guess that could easily be described as "not easy".

almostgotcaught 2y ago
You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.
- skyyler 2y ago
  I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time. But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
    - skyyler 2y ago
      Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
      - mullingitover 2y ago
        You seem to be saying that religions are open to having their dogmas questioned and then growing from that, something that they are famously not open to (kind of the whole idea of a dogma). Obviously 'Not all religions,' etc. However the Catholic church is notoriously dogmatic. Usually the more you press a dogmatic group to change, the more they dig their heels in about it. It's only when the organization is wounded by a schism or massive loss of membership do they suddenly start getting word from heaven that God has changed his mind.
        skyyler 2y ago
        I asked you a very simple yes or no question, actually. Your lack of answer to that question speaks a lot.
kibwen 2y ago
> But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? This is wildly underselling the consequences of challenging the church: two centuries of unrest and war that would eventually result in millions dead, amounting to a significant fraction of Europe's population.
- skyyler 2y ago
  Right, so contesting the church isn't impossible, but it isn't easy.

almostgotcaught 2y ago

You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.

skyyler 2y ago
I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time. But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
  - skyyler 2y ago
    Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      You seem to be saying that religions are open to having their dogmas questioned and then growing from that, something that they are famously not open to (kind of the whole idea of a dogma). Obviously 'Not all religions,' etc. However the Catholic church is notoriously dogmatic. Usually the more you press a dogmatic group to change, the more they dig their heels in about it. It's only when the organization is wounded by a schism or massive loss of membership do they suddenly start getting word from heaven that God has changed his mind.
      - skyyler 2y ago
        I asked you a very simple yes or no question, actually. Your lack of answer to that question speaks a lot.

kibwen 2y ago

> But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? This is wildly underselling the consequences of challenging the church: two centuries of unrest and war that would eventually result in millions dead, amounting to a significant fraction of Europe's population.

skyyler 2y ago
Right, so contesting the church isn't impossible, but it isn't easy.