4 ms·

> The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent. People say this all the time and it's facile. Yes

> The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent. People say this all the time and it's facile. Yes ideology is everywhere and you cannot be completely free from it. But the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology.

econ 2y ago
Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. Since the successfully indoctrinated believers won't let you get away with it it is not worth it. So much so that they never get to hear other versions of anything.
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  What textbook taught in the United States has anything with an ideological stance that isn't at the very least revisionist towards making the US look better? Most history taught in the states already waters down the historical facts to make us look better.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Depends on how you characterize the War of Northern Aggression I suppose
    - skyyler 2y ago
      Also depends on how you characterize the genocide of the natives.
- almostgotcaught 2y ago
  > Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. This is some weird goalpost moving - I didn't say it's easy I said it's possible. Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology - it's literally against the rules.
  - skyyler 2y ago
    >Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning. But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? Well, I guess that could easily be described as "not easy".
    - almostgotcaught 2y ago
      You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.
      - skyyler 2y ago
        I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time. But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.
        mullingitover 2y ago
        Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
        skyyler 2y ago
        Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
        mullingitover 2y ago
        You seem to be saying that religions are open to having their dogmas questioned and then growing from that, something that they are famously not open to (kind of the whole idea of a dogma). Obviously 'Not all religions,' etc. However the Catholic church is notoriously dogmatic. Usually the more you press a dogmatic group to change, the more they dig their heels in about it. It's only when the organization is wounded by a schism or massive loss of membership do they suddenly start getting word from heaven that God has changed his mind.
mmcdermott 2y ago
> the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology. This feels like an odd statement, given how many of the most repressive regimes in human history were or are secular. Maybe the "properly functioning" part is doing the heavy lifting, but if so, it makes the statement almost meaningless.
nsxwolf 2y ago
You cannot question modern gender ideology in any public school around me. All children are indoctrinated with something. There is a competition for who gets to do it.

econ 2y ago

Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. Since the successfully indoctrinated believers won't let you get away with it it is not worth it. So much so that they never get to hear other versions of anything.

MSFT_Edging 2y ago
What textbook taught in the United States has anything with an ideological stance that isn't at the very least revisionist towards making the US look better? Most history taught in the states already waters down the historical facts to make us look better.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Depends on how you characterize the War of Northern Aggression I suppose
  - skyyler 2y ago
    Also depends on how you characterize the genocide of the natives.
almostgotcaught 2y ago
> Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. This is some weird goalpost moving - I didn't say it's easy I said it's possible. Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology - it's literally against the rules.
- skyyler 2y ago
  >Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning. But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? Well, I guess that could easily be described as "not easy".
  - almostgotcaught 2y ago
    You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.
    - skyyler 2y ago
      I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time. But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.
      - mullingitover 2y ago
        Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
        skyyler 2y ago
        Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
        mullingitover 2y ago
        You seem to be saying that religions are open to having their dogmas questioned and then growing from that, something that they are famously not open to (kind of the whole idea of a dogma). Obviously 'Not all religions,' etc. However the Catholic church is notoriously dogmatic. Usually the more you press a dogmatic group to change, the more they dig their heels in about it. It's only when the organization is wounded by a schism or massive loss of membership do they suddenly start getting word from heaven that God has changed his mind.

mmcdermott 2y ago

> the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology. This feels like an odd statement, given how many of the most repressive regimes in human history were or are secular. Maybe the "properly functioning" part is doing the heavy lifting, but if so, it makes the statement almost meaningless.

nsxwolf 2y ago

You cannot question modern gender ideology in any public school around me. All children are indoctrinated with something. There is a competition for who gets to do it.