5 ms·

The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent. That being said, I'll take historical revisionism o

The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent. That being said, I'll take historical revisionism over the history of the empire over, uh, the evangelical option.

almostgotcaught 2y ago
> The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent. People say this all the time and it's facile. Yes ideology is everywhere and you cannot be completely free from it. But the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology.
- econ 2y ago
  Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. Since the successfully indoctrinated believers won't let you get away with it it is not worth it. So much so that they never get to hear other versions of anything.
  - MSFT_Edging 2y ago
    What textbook taught in the United States has anything with an ideological stance that isn't at the very least revisionist towards making the US look better? Most history taught in the states already waters down the historical facts to make us look better.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      Depends on how you characterize the War of Northern Aggression I suppose
      - skyyler 2y ago
        Also depends on how you characterize the genocide of the natives.
  - almostgotcaught 2y ago
    > Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. This is some weird goalpost moving - I didn't say it's easy I said it's possible. Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology - it's literally against the rules.
    - skyyler 2y ago
      >Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning. But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? Well, I guess that could easily be described as "not easy".
      - almostgotcaught 2y ago
        You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.
        skyyler 2y ago
        I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time. But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.
        mullingitover 2y ago
        Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
        skyyler 2y ago
        Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
- mmcdermott 2y ago
  > the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology. This feels like an odd statement, given how many of the most repressive regimes in human history were or are secular. Maybe the "properly functioning" part is doing the heavy lifting, but if so, it makes the statement almost meaningless.
- nsxwolf 2y ago
  You cannot question modern gender ideology in any public school around me. All children are indoctrinated with something. There is a competition for who gets to do it.
mullingitover 2y ago
Main ideological information I learned in state schools: “there are these different ideologies” provided without judgement. There was even a devil’s advocate argument for the south and slavery. In religious schools, even the best of them, I learned nothing about any ideology but the “true” one, everything else was people being deluded by the devil.
- skyyler 2y ago
  >Main ideological information I learned in state schools: “there are these different ideologies” provided without judgement. There was even a devil’s advocate argument for the south and slavery. Did you hear a "devil's advocate" argument for the burning of Tulsa, Oklahoma by white supremacists? Both-Sides-Ism isn't a real way to account for ideological coercion in education. It's just painting a picture that includes your enemies. What your enemies look like in the picture is LADEN with ideology.
- ty6853 2y ago
  Our state school played the pledge of allegiance every morning, had police with drug dogs doing sweep to great praise of the administration, and military recruiters begging us to come kill enemies of the state. The sanctioning of these activities for all to witness was part of the indoctrination -- praise for god was just replaced for worship of the government. Meanwhile basic civil stuff like how to invoke your rights a traffic stop was never even mentioned. This is why even as a hardline atheist I have sent at times my kid to private religious education, and I hope I can continue to afford it. Neither system is great but worshipping someone who exists only as an ideal entity in your mind seems marginally better than worshipping the world's largest incarceration machine and military aggressor.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > Our state school played the pledge of allegiance every morning I had the opposite experience, I never did the pledge in public school (or in the Adventist schools), at least not regularly enough for me to recall, but in the evangelical school it was the entire school doing it together in a big room every damn morning, first thing. I'd argue religious schools are more likely to drill it into you than public schools on account of the "under God" part that they've retconned in. I also never saw military recruiters in public school, neither in military-dense Hawaii nor in deep red central Oregon.

almostgotcaught 2y ago

> The ideological games being pushed on children in state schools is different, but it's not entirely absent. People say this all the time and it's facile. Yes ideology is everywhere and you cannot be completely free from it. But the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology.

econ 2y ago
Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. Since the successfully indoctrinated believers won't let you get away with it it is not worth it. So much so that they never get to hear other versions of anything.
- MSFT_Edging 2y ago
  What textbook taught in the United States has anything with an ideological stance that isn't at the very least revisionist towards making the US look better? Most history taught in the states already waters down the historical facts to make us look better.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Depends on how you characterize the War of Northern Aggression I suppose
    - skyyler 2y ago
      Also depends on how you characterize the genocide of the natives.
- almostgotcaught 2y ago
  > Nah, you can't really. Before you question the textbook you have to wonder if it is worth it. This is some weird goalpost moving - I didn't say it's easy I said it's possible. Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology - it's literally against the rules.
  - skyyler 2y ago
    >Contrast with the fact that you fundamentally cannot question religious ideology Martin Luther was pretty successful in his questioning. But I guess he did get excommunicated for it, didn't he? Well, I guess that could easily be described as "not easy".
    - almostgotcaught 2y ago
      You're again hitting the nail exactly on the head as to the difference: the Lutheran reformation gave way to Lutheranism, it did not actually reform the Catholic Church (cf the counter reformation). So again you see an instance where questioning foundational ideology from within is not possible.
      - skyyler 2y ago
        I have a feeling that it's a lot more difficult to purchase indulgences nowadays than it was during Luther's time. But luckily, I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea.
        mullingitover 2y ago
        Arguably the entire hack created by protestantism was the infinite free indulgences "salvation by faith alone" glitch.
        skyyler 2y ago
        Okay, so you are admitting that Martin Luther had a measurable impact on the practices of the church, right?
mmcdermott 2y ago
> the critical difference between secular ideology and religious ideology is that (in a properly functioning society) you can challenge/question/probe secular ideology. This feels like an odd statement, given how many of the most repressive regimes in human history were or are secular. Maybe the "properly functioning" part is doing the heavy lifting, but if so, it makes the statement almost meaningless.
nsxwolf 2y ago
You cannot question modern gender ideology in any public school around me. All children are indoctrinated with something. There is a competition for who gets to do it.

mullingitover 2y ago

Main ideological information I learned in state schools: “there are these different ideologies” provided without judgement. There was even a devil’s advocate argument for the south and slavery. In religious schools, even the best of them, I learned nothing about any ideology but the “true” one, everything else was people being deluded by the devil.

skyyler 2y ago
>Main ideological information I learned in state schools: “there are these different ideologies” provided without judgement. There was even a devil’s advocate argument for the south and slavery. Did you hear a "devil's advocate" argument for the burning of Tulsa, Oklahoma by white supremacists? Both-Sides-Ism isn't a real way to account for ideological coercion in education. It's just painting a picture that includes your enemies. What your enemies look like in the picture is LADEN with ideology.
ty6853 2y ago
Our state school played the pledge of allegiance every morning, had police with drug dogs doing sweep to great praise of the administration, and military recruiters begging us to come kill enemies of the state. The sanctioning of these activities for all to witness was part of the indoctrination -- praise for god was just replaced for worship of the government. Meanwhile basic civil stuff like how to invoke your rights a traffic stop was never even mentioned. This is why even as a hardline atheist I have sent at times my kid to private religious education, and I hope I can continue to afford it. Neither system is great but worshipping someone who exists only as an ideal entity in your mind seems marginally better than worshipping the world's largest incarceration machine and military aggressor.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > Our state school played the pledge of allegiance every morning I had the opposite experience, I never did the pledge in public school (or in the Adventist schools), at least not regularly enough for me to recall, but in the evangelical school it was the entire school doing it together in a big room every damn morning, first thing. I'd argue religious schools are more likely to drill it into you than public schools on account of the "under God" part that they've retconned in. I also never saw military recruiters in public school, neither in military-dense Hawaii nor in deep red central Oregon.