7 ms·

It's funny; unethical human experimentation during that period is often excused as "it was common practice at the time" (to "forget" to consult patients before

by aredox 2y ago

It's funny; unethical human experimentation during that period is often excused as "it was common practice at the time" (to "forget" to consult patients before enrolling them into experiments), and here we have people of the same period making sure to follow proper ethical procedures... (The same way that even at the time slavery was common - be it XIXth century or Antique Greece - there were already quite a lot of people revulsed by it...)

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
sofixa 2y ago
For what it's worth, enrolling patients without consent in unnecessary procedures still happens today. There's even a whole Wiki article about one category of those (which was banned in France in 2016, and US in 2024, but probably remains legal and pervasive in a lot of other countries): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvic_examinations_under_anesthesia_by_medical_students_without_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvic_examinations_under_anes...
- thimkerbell 2y ago
  Isn't experimentation.
  - timewizard 2y ago
    I'm sure the patients are comforted by the difference.
    - rendaw 2y ago
      I think GP's point is that calling it experimentation euphemizes it.
- tdeck 2y ago
  Unbelievable that this was and is a thing and that I've never heard of it before.
themaninthedark 2y ago
Which Antique Greece was revulsed by slavery? It wasn't the democracy of Athens... >Participation was open to adult, free male citizens (i.e., not a metic, woman or slave). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy
- MisterTea 2y ago
  "there were already quite a lot of people revulsed by it...)" does not imply all of "Antique Greece" felt this way. Only that some people did.
  - senderista 2y ago
    Who?
    - MisterTea 2y ago
      Ask the GP. I was just clarifying the misunderstanding. However, an extremely cursory search turns up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Views_of_Greek_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#View... where it is mentioned that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcidamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcidamas is one such person. Though it seems that slavery in ancient Greece was normalized and deeply intertwined within their society. I am sure there were critics but like everything unpopular, may have been discarded or suppressed.
      - mr_toad 2y ago
        I think the question of whether any ancient society was (as a whole) opposed to slavery is a valid one.
foxyv 2y ago
Just a quick reminder, slavery is still common in the United States.
- kjs3 2y ago
  Just a quick reminder, 1/3 of 1% is not 'common'. Unless you (predictably) redefine math and English so you get to be right. https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-states/ https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studie... https://ourrescue.org/education/research-and-trends/modern-day-slavery https://ourrescue.org/education/research-and-trends/modern-d...
  - foxyv 2y ago
    Only 7 of 50 states ban forced labor. Seems pretty common to me.
  - samplatt 2y ago
    3.3 people per thousand is pretty common for something that isn't meant to exist at all. I could meet 1000 people and, due to the ostensibly advanced & cultured world we live in, I would be confident none of them should be slaves. Being so inflexible with the definition is not the same as being honest. Astrophysicists and statisticians often use the word 'common' to refer to vanishingly small numbers, and us uneducated laypeople are usually just fine with that.
    - kjs3 2y ago
      Being so inflexible with the definition is not the same as being honest. If I said "AB negative blood is common" or "Australians are common", most people wouldn't say I was being 'inflexible' if I said "only 1/3 of 1% isn't that common" and uneducated laypeople (and Australians) are usually just fine with that, too. But it's a hot button topic and the OP want's to derail the thread to it's pet peeve, and there's always someone who wants to pipe up with "I don't like your facts so I'll attack your intent".
      - 2y ago

by aredox 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

sofixa 2y ago

For what it's worth, enrolling patients without consent in unnecessary procedures still happens today. There's even a whole Wiki article about one category of those (which was banned in France in 2016, and US in 2024, but probably remains legal and pervasive in a lot of other countries): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvic_examinations_under_anesthesia_by_medical_students_without_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvic_examinations_under_anes...

thimkerbell 2y ago
Isn't experimentation.
- timewizard 2y ago
  I'm sure the patients are comforted by the difference.
  - rendaw 2y ago
    I think GP's point is that calling it experimentation euphemizes it.
tdeck 2y ago
Unbelievable that this was and is a thing and that I've never heard of it before.

themaninthedark 2y ago

Which Antique Greece was revulsed by slavery? It wasn't the democracy of Athens... >Participation was open to adult, free male citizens (i.e., not a metic, woman or slave). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

MisterTea 2y ago
"there were already quite a lot of people revulsed by it...)" does not imply all of "Antique Greece" felt this way. Only that some people did.
- senderista 2y ago
  Who?
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    Ask the GP. I was just clarifying the misunderstanding. However, an extremely cursory search turns up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Views_of_Greek_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#View... where it is mentioned that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcidamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcidamas is one such person. Though it seems that slavery in ancient Greece was normalized and deeply intertwined within their society. I am sure there were critics but like everything unpopular, may have been discarded or suppressed.
    - mr_toad 2y ago
      I think the question of whether any ancient society was (as a whole) opposed to slavery is a valid one.

foxyv 2y ago

Just a quick reminder, slavery is still common in the United States.

kjs3 2y ago
Just a quick reminder, 1/3 of 1% is not 'common'. Unless you (predictably) redefine math and English so you get to be right. https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-states/ https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studie... https://ourrescue.org/education/research-and-trends/modern-day-slavery https://ourrescue.org/education/research-and-trends/modern-d...
- foxyv 2y ago
  Only 7 of 50 states ban forced labor. Seems pretty common to me.
- samplatt 2y ago
  3.3 people per thousand is pretty common for something that isn't meant to exist at all. I could meet 1000 people and, due to the ostensibly advanced & cultured world we live in, I would be confident none of them should be slaves. Being so inflexible with the definition is not the same as being honest. Astrophysicists and statisticians often use the word 'common' to refer to vanishingly small numbers, and us uneducated laypeople are usually just fine with that.
  - kjs3 2y ago
    Being so inflexible with the definition is not the same as being honest. If I said "AB negative blood is common" or "Australians are common", most people wouldn't say I was being 'inflexible' if I said "only 1/3 of 1% isn't that common" and uneducated laypeople (and Australians) are usually just fine with that, too. But it's a hot button topic and the OP want's to derail the thread to it's pet peeve, and there's always someone who wants to pipe up with "I don't like your facts so I'll attack your intent".
    - 2y ago