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Much like with the speakers, Apple are trying way too hard to be fancy here Could the author of this package comment on this statement? I'd be really intereste

Much like with the speakers, Apple are trying way too hard to be fancy here Could the author of this package comment on this statement? I'd be really interested in their opinion of their speaker implementation. What's overly complicated there? The hardware? The software? As a MBP user and hobbyist audio guy I've been really impressed with the implementation of those speakers, particularly on the larger MBP models. But I'm just a hobbyist and don't have any knowledge of them other than the driver arrangement (tweeter + dual opposed woofers). It certainly seems like they're pulling the same tricks used by "good" bluetooth speaker designers in order to wring acceptable perf and bass extension from teeny tiny speakers (adaptive EQ etc)

crazygringo 2y ago
I'm confused too. These days, "spatial audio" on speakers (different from on headphones) and beamforming mics is starting to feel standard, at least on premium hardware. Dumb, noisy, cramped, unbalanced audio just doesn't cut it anymore.
- numpad0 2y ago
  if you think fake 5.1ch sounds better, not like better for enjoying action movies, you've never had exposure to a >$99 pair of bookshelf speakers with a non-USB powered class D amp. change my mind.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    Huh? Who's talking about bookshelf speakers? This is about laptop speakers that just pass audio directly through, vs. laptop speakers that process the audio including spatially. Yes, it sounds dramatically better. And it's not just about "fake 5.1" but even just mono or stereo. External speakers are a totally different conversation.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
brundolf 2y ago
My guess (without value judgement) is he was referring to the fact that they don't really work without such software
- qoez 2y ago
  Seems like a common pattern lately that apples hardware people continues to be top notch and the software group is slacking.
  - CamouflagedKiwi 2y ago
    I don't think that's really fair here? The comment suggests the hardware doesn't work well without relatively complex software to support it, which seems to be the case on macos. That suggests the software group are keeping up their end at least.
  - brundolf 2y ago
    That's not at all the takeaway. macOS has the requisite software built-in; the hardware is designed in such a way that it requires software assistance to function, which is a choice that has advantages and disadvantages. The OP exists for situations where you aren't running Apple's own beamforming software on this hardware (to my understanding)
- robertoandred 2y ago
  How's hardware supposed to work without software?
  - stefan_ 2y ago
    With a hardware DSP? It's gonna have software in it, but doing this kind of processing in the upper most top level OS stack is certainly a choice.
    - argsnd 2y ago
      It seems like a good choice. It’s computationally extremely light and you can update it much more easily with new features (they actually did this once - to let you change the beamforming mode in the menu bar)
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I have a feeling that this package is for folks that want to run Linux distros on the laptops, and have access to the same capabilities as native MacOS.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
raphlinus 2y ago
Getting reasonable speaker support in Asahi Linux was a big deal. Part of the problem is that limiting the power usage to prevent overheating requires sophisticated DSP. Without that, you get very limited volume output within safe limits. Probably the best overview to find out more is here: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio
- nikisweeting 2y ago
  wow I'm surprised overheating is the bottleneck, I would've assumed clipping would damage the drivers before that
  - raphlinus 2y ago
    Yup. A little more detail on the overheating part in particular is here: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/speakersafetyd https://github.com/AsahiLinux/speakersafetyd
    - nikisweeting 2y ago
      Fascinating, thanks for sharing! Very surprised they do this at the software level.
      - JohnBooty 2y ago
        "Modern" speaker design is all about software, it's super interesting. In some ways speaker design is all about trying to cheat "Hoffman's Iron Law": bass, efficiency, and compact size.... you can only have 2 of the 3. Part of it (as we know thanks to Asahi's work) is that you are varying a lot of speaker parameters dynamically. For example at low volumes you can dump extra energy into the bass frequencies. But at increasingly higher volumes you need to limit that. To get really dynamic you need to know not just the user's volume setting but like, real time spectral analysis of the actual program material A speaker designer from 50 years ago would not be impressed with a modern pair of $500 or $1000 bookshelf speakers, those have barely changed. But they would be absolutely astonished at how some semblance of performance has been extracted from teeny tiny speakers on a Mac laptop or a high quality bluetooth speaker
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
littlecranky67 2y ago
> Much like with the speakers, Apple are trying way too hard to be fancy here It is just a reference that Apple Laptop speakers have been waaay above anything the competition uses - and this is true since multiple generations. Had a MBP from 2014 and multiple friends were astonished about the sound when we watched a movie on the go. Same with the M4 MBP - sounds quality from the speaker is at a level that you probably don't actually need.
- Sharlin 2y ago
  In my experience MBP 2015 sound is pretty thin and high frequencies are prone to clipping at even a moderate volume – soprano vocal parts suffer from this quite a bit. Of course for most uses that’s not a big problem and I’m sure the sound is still much better than that of many other laptops though. But the M series MBP speakers are a crazy improvement.
- wk_end 2y ago
  I feel like this must be some kind of a language barrier thing - the dev’s name appears to be Spanish, so English may not be their native language. And I think that most native English speakers - as demonstrated by multiple comments asking about it in this thread - would interpret “trying too hard to be fancy” as implying “because you can get similar high-quality results without using such sophisticated techniques”; but it seems like you’re saying (and this makes sense) they meant “because getting such high-quality results is overkill for a consumer laptop”. Language is fascinating - I can convince myself with enough effort that the latter is just as valid as the former, given the literal meaning of the words, but my linguistic intuition is screaming at me that it’s wrong. How does someone ever learn that? How would a textbook ever explain it?
  - littlecranky67 2y ago
    Agree with you, I was confused why everybody else interpreted in a different way. Am not spanish but german and not a native speaker, so the language barrier thing might be a good explanation.
- avianlyric 2y ago

crazygringo 2y ago

I'm confused too. These days, "spatial audio" on speakers (different from on headphones) and beamforming mics is starting to feel standard, at least on premium hardware. Dumb, noisy, cramped, unbalanced audio just doesn't cut it anymore.

numpad0 2y ago
if you think fake 5.1ch sounds better, not like better for enjoying action movies, you've never had exposure to a >$99 pair of bookshelf speakers with a non-USB powered class D amp. change my mind.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Huh? Who's talking about bookshelf speakers? This is about laptop speakers that just pass audio directly through, vs. laptop speakers that process the audio including spatially. Yes, it sounds dramatically better. And it's not just about "fake 5.1" but even just mono or stereo. External speakers are a totally different conversation.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

brundolf 2y ago

My guess (without value judgement) is he was referring to the fact that they don't really work without such software

qoez 2y ago
Seems like a common pattern lately that apples hardware people continues to be top notch and the software group is slacking.
- CamouflagedKiwi 2y ago
  I don't think that's really fair here? The comment suggests the hardware doesn't work well without relatively complex software to support it, which seems to be the case on macos. That suggests the software group are keeping up their end at least.
- brundolf 2y ago
  That's not at all the takeaway. macOS has the requisite software built-in; the hardware is designed in such a way that it requires software assistance to function, which is a choice that has advantages and disadvantages. The OP exists for situations where you aren't running Apple's own beamforming software on this hardware (to my understanding)
robertoandred 2y ago
How's hardware supposed to work without software?
- stefan_ 2y ago
  With a hardware DSP? It's gonna have software in it, but doing this kind of processing in the upper most top level OS stack is certainly a choice.
  - argsnd 2y ago
    It seems like a good choice. It’s computationally extremely light and you can update it much more easily with new features (they actually did this once - to let you change the beamforming mode in the menu bar)

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I have a feeling that this package is for folks that want to run Linux distros on the laptops, and have access to the same capabilities as native MacOS.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

raphlinus 2y ago

Getting reasonable speaker support in Asahi Linux was a big deal. Part of the problem is that limiting the power usage to prevent overheating requires sophisticated DSP. Without that, you get very limited volume output within safe limits. Probably the best overview to find out more is here: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio

nikisweeting 2y ago
wow I'm surprised overheating is the bottleneck, I would've assumed clipping would damage the drivers before that
- raphlinus 2y ago
  Yup. A little more detail on the overheating part in particular is here: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/speakersafetyd https://github.com/AsahiLinux/speakersafetyd
  - nikisweeting 2y ago
    Fascinating, thanks for sharing! Very surprised they do this at the software level.
    - JohnBooty 2y ago
      "Modern" speaker design is all about software, it's super interesting. In some ways speaker design is all about trying to cheat "Hoffman's Iron Law": bass, efficiency, and compact size.... you can only have 2 of the 3. Part of it (as we know thanks to Asahi's work) is that you are varying a lot of speaker parameters dynamically. For example at low volumes you can dump extra energy into the bass frequencies. But at increasingly higher volumes you need to limit that. To get really dynamic you need to know not just the user's volume setting but like, real time spectral analysis of the actual program material A speaker designer from 50 years ago would not be impressed with a modern pair of $500 or $1000 bookshelf speakers, those have barely changed. But they would be absolutely astonished at how some semblance of performance has been extracted from teeny tiny speakers on a Mac laptop or a high quality bluetooth speaker

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

littlecranky67 2y ago

> Much like with the speakers, Apple are trying way too hard to be fancy here It is just a reference that Apple Laptop speakers have been waaay above anything the competition uses - and this is true since multiple generations. Had a MBP from 2014 and multiple friends were astonished about the sound when we watched a movie on the go. Same with the M4 MBP - sounds quality from the speaker is at a level that you probably don't actually need.

Sharlin 2y ago
In my experience MBP 2015 sound is pretty thin and high frequencies are prone to clipping at even a moderate volume – soprano vocal parts suffer from this quite a bit. Of course for most uses that’s not a big problem and I’m sure the sound is still much better than that of many other laptops though. But the M series MBP speakers are a crazy improvement.
wk_end 2y ago
I feel like this must be some kind of a language barrier thing - the dev’s name appears to be Spanish, so English may not be their native language. And I think that most native English speakers - as demonstrated by multiple comments asking about it in this thread - would interpret “trying too hard to be fancy” as implying “because you can get similar high-quality results without using such sophisticated techniques”; but it seems like you’re saying (and this makes sense) they meant “because getting such high-quality results is overkill for a consumer laptop”. Language is fascinating - I can convince myself with enough effort that the latter is just as valid as the former, given the literal meaning of the words, but my linguistic intuition is screaming at me that it’s wrong. How does someone ever learn that? How would a textbook ever explain it?
- littlecranky67 2y ago
  Agree with you, I was confused why everybody else interpreted in a different way. Am not spanish but german and not a native speaker, so the language barrier thing might be a good explanation.
avianlyric 2y ago