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> My citizenship is not something I chose, it's an accident of birth [...] Supporting your own country even when they are doing things that are bad seems bad to

> My citizenship is not something I chose, it's an accident of birth [...] Supporting your own country even when they are doing things that are bad seems bad to me. Would you say the same of your family? If a family member were doing bad things, I would still love them and be loyal to them. But I would show that love by confronting them thoughtfully, not rejecting the family entirely. In that sense, our mutual family membership could hopefully become a means of calling them back to their senses, especially if multiple family members are involved in talking to them over a period of time. > It's like football hooligans fighting over their favorite sports teams. That take trivializes human institutions in which we are members. These institutions ought to be taken as sacred. When they fall, we fall. (Not so with a sports team losing to another team :)

amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Nations fall all the time. Humans go on. Most modern countries are not that old, because the previous countries fell. People are still around though. Plus: if your country goes bad, your best move might be to take your family and get the hell out of there. There are plenty of recent examples.
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  A nation falling is a big deal. I'm surprised at how you hand-wave it away. Yes, some falls were good. The falls of the Nazi Germany, the USSR, East Germany, and Nicolae Ceaușescu were very good, primarily because those regimes oppressed their populations and murdered tens of millions of people. Yet many falls were bad. The fall of Germany to the Nazi party, the falls of Russia and China to communism, and any invasion and subjugation of a free and noble people is a bad thing. Let me ask you this rhetorically -- would you rather the USA be ruled by the Chinese Communist Party, the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico, or the US government? Imagine the consequences of each -- I think you'd agree that each is objectively better or worse than others for specific reasons. If such a choice were presented, it would not be morally or practically neutral - it would carry tremendous implications for human flourishing (or suffering). We ought to consider carefully and not hand-wave historical (or potential future) events that carry such massive consequences. > if your country goes bad, your best move might be to take your family and get the hell out of there Agreed, but that's a last resort. Many did so as Germany was falling to the Nazis, and as Russia and China were falling to communism. I have a friend whose parents escaped to Taiwan by holding on to the underside of a boat as it crossed the channel... I wouldn't tell them it wasn't a big deal. Many people who did so lost everything except their immediate family in the process. So many people couldn't flee, though. And so much that had been built (people, skills, knowledge, families, institutions, relationships, social capital) was lost forever.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

Nations fall all the time. Humans go on. Most modern countries are not that old, because the previous countries fell. People are still around though. Plus: if your country goes bad, your best move might be to take your family and get the hell out of there. There are plenty of recent examples.

TimTheTinker 2y ago
A nation falling is a big deal. I'm surprised at how you hand-wave it away. Yes, some falls were good. The falls of the Nazi Germany, the USSR, East Germany, and Nicolae Ceaușescu were very good, primarily because those regimes oppressed their populations and murdered tens of millions of people. Yet many falls were bad. The fall of Germany to the Nazi party, the falls of Russia and China to communism, and any invasion and subjugation of a free and noble people is a bad thing. Let me ask you this rhetorically -- would you rather the USA be ruled by the Chinese Communist Party, the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico, or the US government? Imagine the consequences of each -- I think you'd agree that each is objectively better or worse than others for specific reasons. If such a choice were presented, it would not be morally or practically neutral - it would carry tremendous implications for human flourishing (or suffering). We ought to consider carefully and not hand-wave historical (or potential future) events that carry such massive consequences. > if your country goes bad, your best move might be to take your family and get the hell out of there Agreed, but that's a last resort. Many did so as Germany was falling to the Nazis, and as Russia and China were falling to communism. I have a friend whose parents escaped to Taiwan by holding on to the underside of a boat as it crossed the channel... I wouldn't tell them it wasn't a big deal. Many people who did so lost everything except their immediate family in the process. So many people couldn't flee, though. And so much that had been built (people, skills, knowledge, families, institutions, relationships, social capital) was lost forever.