4 ms·

Gimme a break. Compare China's centralized economy's solar/wind/nuclear production to the entirety of the west's decentralized, privatized economy. not even clo

Gimme a break. Compare China's centralized economy's solar/wind/nuclear production to the entirety of the west's decentralized, privatized economy. not even close.

leetharris 2y ago
Good, all we need to do is become China and we're set!
- outer_web 2y ago
  I don't think that's what he was saying.
- r00fus 2y ago
  No, but the US needs to actually compete with China. Instead the reaction from leadership has been to utter fail to compete and lambast China as an enemy instead of a competitor. None of this serves anyone but the ruling class and deep state. War with China is going to be one that the US loses.
  - kragen 2y ago
    War with China would leave every city in both the US and China a radioactive wasteland. The US would lose, but so would China.
epistasis 2y ago
Well it really depends on who is control of the centralized decision making. In most states in the US it's fossil fuel interests that control utilities, and much of the government. Which means a very slow transition for nearly every state, when compared to Texas' decision to allow the cheapest energy to win. In China, the government has the goal of deploying as much energy as possible as cheaply and fast as possible, and promoting their own industries too. Which means tons and tons and tons of renewables.
epidemiology 2y ago
China burns more coal than the rest of the world combined.
- barbazoo 2y ago
  To power the factories that build the products we so desperately need for a price we can afford. If we stopped buying shit we don't need, they could easily turn off a good portion of their coal powered electricity plants if they wanted.
  - merely-unlikely 2y ago
    > If we stopped buying shit we don't need, they could easily turn off a good portion of their coal powered electricity plants if they wanted. If they wanted. China has a policy of overproduction, especially in raw materials like steel. While the US subsidizes consumption, China subsidizes production. It is not clear they would elect to scale back (and take the economic hit) even if Western consumers decided to voluntarily cut back (which also seems unlikely).
- andrepd 2y ago
  To manufacture products exported to the west. It's always this argument... You need to look at emissions by country of final destination of the products, not by country of manufacture. In an age where a simple t-shirt is made in Bangladesh with cotton from Afghanistan it's ridiculous to use the latter measure.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    This is a large part of why I think we need to move manufacturing for domestic products back to the US. The argument was always that the labor and regulations cost too much but the labor abuse and pollution are costing us more.
    - krapp 2y ago
      You don't think domestic manufacturers will abuse labor and pollute? The same party that wants to move manufacturing back to the US also wants to deregulate as much as possible, roll back labor rights and repeal environmental laws. The cost of moving manufacturing out of China and to the US is that the few Americans who can get work in a mostly AI driven and automated industry will eventually get treated and paid like Chinese labor.
kragen 2y ago
China's solar and wind production is extremely decentralized, and its nuclear production is not significant, except as usual from a proliferation perspective. While (centralized, government) industrial policy has played a key role in making its renewable energy sector so utterly dominant, the sector thus created is more decentralized and privatized than in even the US.

Gimme a break. Compare China's centralized economy's solar/wind/nuclear production to the entirety of the west's decentralized, privatized economy. not even close.

leetharris 2y ago

Good, all we need to do is become China and we're set!

outer_web 2y ago
I don't think that's what he was saying.
r00fus 2y ago
No, but the US needs to actually compete with China. Instead the reaction from leadership has been to utter fail to compete and lambast China as an enemy instead of a competitor. None of this serves anyone but the ruling class and deep state. War with China is going to be one that the US loses.
- kragen 2y ago
  War with China would leave every city in both the US and China a radioactive wasteland. The US would lose, but so would China.

epistasis 2y ago

Well it really depends on who is control of the centralized decision making. In most states in the US it's fossil fuel interests that control utilities, and much of the government. Which means a very slow transition for nearly every state, when compared to Texas' decision to allow the cheapest energy to win. In China, the government has the goal of deploying as much energy as possible as cheaply and fast as possible, and promoting their own industries too. Which means tons and tons and tons of renewables.

epidemiology 2y ago

China burns more coal than the rest of the world combined.

barbazoo 2y ago
To power the factories that build the products we so desperately need for a price we can afford. If we stopped buying shit we don't need, they could easily turn off a good portion of their coal powered electricity plants if they wanted.
- merely-unlikely 2y ago
  > If we stopped buying shit we don't need, they could easily turn off a good portion of their coal powered electricity plants if they wanted. If they wanted. China has a policy of overproduction, especially in raw materials like steel. While the US subsidizes consumption, China subsidizes production. It is not clear they would elect to scale back (and take the economic hit) even if Western consumers decided to voluntarily cut back (which also seems unlikely).
andrepd 2y ago
To manufacture products exported to the west. It's always this argument... You need to look at emissions by country of final destination of the products, not by country of manufacture. In an age where a simple t-shirt is made in Bangladesh with cotton from Afghanistan it's ridiculous to use the latter measure.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  This is a large part of why I think we need to move manufacturing for domestic products back to the US. The argument was always that the labor and regulations cost too much but the labor abuse and pollution are costing us more.
  - krapp 2y ago
    You don't think domestic manufacturers will abuse labor and pollute? The same party that wants to move manufacturing back to the US also wants to deregulate as much as possible, roll back labor rights and repeal environmental laws. The cost of moving manufacturing out of China and to the US is that the few Americans who can get work in a mostly AI driven and automated industry will eventually get treated and paid like Chinese labor.

kragen 2y ago

China's solar and wind production is extremely decentralized, and its nuclear production is not significant, except as usual from a proliferation perspective. While (centralized, government) industrial policy has played a key role in making its renewable energy sector so utterly dominant, the sector thus created is more decentralized and privatized than in even the US.