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There is no relevant contradiction. The entire New Testament is Jesus preaching love and forgiveness, Jesus practicing love and forgiveness - and not just to hi

There is no relevant contradiction. The entire New Testament is Jesus preaching love and forgiveness, Jesus practicing love and forgiveness - and not just to his followers - and explicit condemnation of wealth and instructing his followers to care for others. Anyone who takes that message and instead lobbies to destroy healthcare and welfare and to push hate and attack anyone who doesn't agree with them - and anyone who votes for the party of politicians that has been practicing and preaching that for decades - is not a Christian regardless of how they spend their Sundays.

MrMcCall 2y ago
Beautifully said. To expand on that beautiful theme: Animals compete, human beings cooperate. Animals take advantage of others, human beings care for others by helping them and protecting them from harm. May compassion rule our hearts for the benefit of one and all and the Earth, herself. We can choose to end suffering. As the "$6 Million Man" intro said in the 70s, "We have the technology." The world has already learned how we MUST deal with people who act like Nazis, those who choose to emulate their brutal policies. The paradox of tolerance is also a part of Jesus's teachings for He "didn't come to bring peace, but a sword." His Divine love must be fierce in the face of cruel depradations, but must never embrace hatred or rage or cruelty. Tonight is the "Night of Power". Send some vibrations out asking our Creator to help you be a part of fixing this Earthwide deplorable mess. Make the Bhodisattva Vow. Ask our Creator to take Its spirit back into Itself to help cleanse and purify your soul of selfish vice, to help you become consumed by the Wisdom of Love (that's the meaning of the 1st Beatitude, called Hidayet in Sufism). All that we emanate resonates back within ourselves. The spiritual path of love is the process of tuning our vibrations towards effortful loving service and away from selfishly callous ignorance of the suffering of others. "Lasting peace and happiness for ALL human beings." --Me
- watwut 2y ago
  > Animals compete, human beings cooperate. Animals do cooperate, a lot and frequently. Including predators like lions. There are solitary animals, but cooperation is not rare. > Animals take advantage of others, human beings care for others by helping them and protecting them from harm. Animals do help others and try to protect them from harm.
  - MrMcCall 2y ago
    > Animals do cooperate, a lot and frequently. Including predators like lions. There are solitary animals, but cooperation is not rare. That is just pack behavior. Animals are nearly always at war among their own for territory, and will often attack other kinds animals that compete for their food sources, unless there is mutual benefit (e.g. deers and monkeys sharing alarm calls for tigers). > Animals do help others and try to protect them from harm. Not their competitors, friend. I've seen all of Sir David Attenboroughs' nature serieses multiple times, save the Antarctica one, including the "Trials of Life" where the decades-ago TV commercial here in America had the line, "the relentless pursuit to continue the bloodline". I know what happens when a bear comes upon a wolfpack's kill. Ain't no sharing there, friend. Lions clawing the balls off a young wandering, trespassing male is the baseline root of animal nature. Any student of history knows this lionine behavior is closer to the driving impetus for human nature than pursuits of selflessly loving peace. "They are like the animals, only worse." That is our negative potential, each and every one of us. Only we have a mind to learn how to contemplate our potential self-evolution and our current amount of progress. And we are free to instead use our minds to just pursue worldly pleasures at the expense of anyone else's happiness. All potentials are available to us, though we cannot escape the price of karma we must each pay, and do, for better or worse, always accurately reaping what we have sown. Not a jot unaccounted for. God's teachings of love are here to help us self-evolve ourselves out of our selfishly animalistic negative potentials towards a peaceful, harmonious universally-compassionate integrated society of equals of different paths and cultures, sans abuse or oppression of any kind. One great example is how Guru Nanak (Sikh founding Guru) set his table where everyone sat together, not stratified by caste. That is the Way of human love, born of God's love for us.
    - watwut 2y ago
      > Animals are nearly always at war among their own for territory, This is not true. Quite a lot of animals are neither territorial nor at war constantly. > will often attack other kinds animals that compete for their food sources You should know that non aggressive animals exist. They are not some kind of exception at all. That being said, people have literal wars over important resources. They are no strangers of systematically abusing half the population or more ... or even enslaving them. There are people who believe empathy is weakness and they won election, because huge amounts of electorate agrees. > , unless there is mutual benefit (e.g. deers and monkeys sharing alarm calls for tigers). Nice example of cooperation. It is no different then humans cooperating with each other. > Not their competitors, friend. What kind of new standard you are putting on in there? How do you define competitor and is it really that different then social behavior of people? Like right now, you see half of America cheering on harm done to other Americans. You see them attacking other countries and people over percieved competition ... that completely their own construction.
sigzero 2y ago
Jesus does not condemn wealth. If that is what you are taking away from his interaction with the rich man, you would be wrong. Wealth itself is never condemned in the Bible (Old or New Testament). God often blessed his servants with wealth.
- MagnumOpus 2y ago
  Jesus very explicitly condemns wealth, in a directly quoted passage that cannot be misunderstood. Jesus as quoted in Matthew 19:24 is very very blunt: "I'll say it again - it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of god!" I.e. wealthy people who don’t give it all away will go to hell.
  - schiem 2y ago
    To head off typical response to that passage - the idea that "the eye of a needle" was referencing a literal gate in Jerusalem (changing the meaning of the passage from "impossible" to "you might have to squeeze a little bit") is a post-hoc justification with no basis in reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Gate
  - lurk2 2y ago
    > I.e. wealthy people who don’t give it all away will go to hell. Did Job go to hell? > And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. > [11] Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house; and they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him; and each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold. > [12] And the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she-asses.
    - Arainach 2y ago
      The New Testament is unambiguous. Jesus expels the money lenders from the temple and says it is harder for a rich man to go to heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Christians are, first, and foremost, followings of Christ and his teachings. That's the point of the entire name. Jesus's words have more weight than anything that came before. The Old Testament is where fake Christians always go to pick and choose. If you believe the experiences of Job are relevant, do you also refuse to wear clothing made of multiple fabrics (Deuteronomy 22:9–11, Leviticus 19:19)? Here, I'll let West Wing cite the sources for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc
lurk2 2y ago
While I don’t want to look like I’m going to bat for the Hobby Lobby people, this seems like a very convenient way for you to argue that everyone ought to agree with your policy positions, even when those policy positions are not explicitly biblical. How do you reconcile the welfare state with Thessalonians 3:10, or Matthew 7:6? How do you address the restoration of Job? Was God mistaken in awarding Job with material wealth?
- Arainach 2y ago
  Other humans are not "dogs" or "pigs". Jesus was unambiguous. "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30–31) Or, even more explicit, Matthew 25:31-46. "Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’" Jesus is explicitly advocating welfare - providing food, drink, clothes, healthcare, and more to anyone in need. Jesus was also unambiguous on wealth. Christians, who follow the teachings of Christ, should give greater merit to his words than to anything in the old testament which came before. For more, consider 1 John 4:20 "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."
  - lurk2 2y ago
    > Other humans are not "dogs" or "pigs". So why is the verse there? > Jesus is explicitly advocating welfare - providing food, drink, clothes, healthcare, and more to anyone in need. There is nothing in this verse which says that property is to be expropriated for the purposes of assuring others a particular standard of living, and I don’t think you’ll be able to find one. > Jesus was also unambiguous on wealth. Christians, who follow the teachings of Christ, should give greater merit to his words than to anything in the old testament which came before. You’ve ignored my question. If Jesus is God, and God rewarded Job with material wealth in this world, how can Jesus be said to offer an unambiguous criticism of wealth?

MrMcCall 2y ago

Beautifully said. To expand on that beautiful theme: Animals compete, human beings cooperate. Animals take advantage of others, human beings care for others by helping them and protecting them from harm. May compassion rule our hearts for the benefit of one and all and the Earth, herself. We can choose to end suffering. As the "$6 Million Man" intro said in the 70s, "We have the technology." The world has already learned how we MUST deal with people who act like Nazis, those who choose to emulate their brutal policies. The paradox of tolerance is also a part of Jesus's teachings for He "didn't come to bring peace, but a sword." His Divine love must be fierce in the face of cruel depradations, but must never embrace hatred or rage or cruelty. Tonight is the "Night of Power". Send some vibrations out asking our Creator to help you be a part of fixing this Earthwide deplorable mess. Make the Bhodisattva Vow. Ask our Creator to take Its spirit back into Itself to help cleanse and purify your soul of selfish vice, to help you become consumed by the Wisdom of Love (that's the meaning of the 1st Beatitude, called Hidayet in Sufism). All that we emanate resonates back within ourselves. The spiritual path of love is the process of tuning our vibrations towards effortful loving service and away from selfishly callous ignorance of the suffering of others. "Lasting peace and happiness for ALL human beings." --Me

watwut 2y ago
> Animals compete, human beings cooperate. Animals do cooperate, a lot and frequently. Including predators like lions. There are solitary animals, but cooperation is not rare. > Animals take advantage of others, human beings care for others by helping them and protecting them from harm. Animals do help others and try to protect them from harm.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  > Animals do cooperate, a lot and frequently. Including predators like lions. There are solitary animals, but cooperation is not rare. That is just pack behavior. Animals are nearly always at war among their own for territory, and will often attack other kinds animals that compete for their food sources, unless there is mutual benefit (e.g. deers and monkeys sharing alarm calls for tigers). > Animals do help others and try to protect them from harm. Not their competitors, friend. I've seen all of Sir David Attenboroughs' nature serieses multiple times, save the Antarctica one, including the "Trials of Life" where the decades-ago TV commercial here in America had the line, "the relentless pursuit to continue the bloodline". I know what happens when a bear comes upon a wolfpack's kill. Ain't no sharing there, friend. Lions clawing the balls off a young wandering, trespassing male is the baseline root of animal nature. Any student of history knows this lionine behavior is closer to the driving impetus for human nature than pursuits of selflessly loving peace. "They are like the animals, only worse." That is our negative potential, each and every one of us. Only we have a mind to learn how to contemplate our potential self-evolution and our current amount of progress. And we are free to instead use our minds to just pursue worldly pleasures at the expense of anyone else's happiness. All potentials are available to us, though we cannot escape the price of karma we must each pay, and do, for better or worse, always accurately reaping what we have sown. Not a jot unaccounted for. God's teachings of love are here to help us self-evolve ourselves out of our selfishly animalistic negative potentials towards a peaceful, harmonious universally-compassionate integrated society of equals of different paths and cultures, sans abuse or oppression of any kind. One great example is how Guru Nanak (Sikh founding Guru) set his table where everyone sat together, not stratified by caste. That is the Way of human love, born of God's love for us.
  - watwut 2y ago
    > Animals are nearly always at war among their own for territory, This is not true. Quite a lot of animals are neither territorial nor at war constantly. > will often attack other kinds animals that compete for their food sources You should know that non aggressive animals exist. They are not some kind of exception at all. That being said, people have literal wars over important resources. They are no strangers of systematically abusing half the population or more ... or even enslaving them. There are people who believe empathy is weakness and they won election, because huge amounts of electorate agrees. > , unless there is mutual benefit (e.g. deers and monkeys sharing alarm calls for tigers). Nice example of cooperation. It is no different then humans cooperating with each other. > Not their competitors, friend. What kind of new standard you are putting on in there? How do you define competitor and is it really that different then social behavior of people? Like right now, you see half of America cheering on harm done to other Americans. You see them attacking other countries and people over percieved competition ... that completely their own construction.

sigzero 2y ago

Jesus does not condemn wealth. If that is what you are taking away from his interaction with the rich man, you would be wrong. Wealth itself is never condemned in the Bible (Old or New Testament). God often blessed his servants with wealth.

MagnumOpus 2y ago
Jesus very explicitly condemns wealth, in a directly quoted passage that cannot be misunderstood. Jesus as quoted in Matthew 19:24 is very very blunt: "I'll say it again - it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of god!" I.e. wealthy people who don’t give it all away will go to hell.
- schiem 2y ago
  To head off typical response to that passage - the idea that "the eye of a needle" was referencing a literal gate in Jerusalem (changing the meaning of the passage from "impossible" to "you might have to squeeze a little bit") is a post-hoc justification with no basis in reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Gate
- lurk2 2y ago
  > I.e. wealthy people who don’t give it all away will go to hell. Did Job go to hell? > And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. > [11] Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house; and they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him; and each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold. > [12] And the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she-asses.
  - Arainach 2y ago
    The New Testament is unambiguous. Jesus expels the money lenders from the temple and says it is harder for a rich man to go to heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Christians are, first, and foremost, followings of Christ and his teachings. That's the point of the entire name. Jesus's words have more weight than anything that came before. The Old Testament is where fake Christians always go to pick and choose. If you believe the experiences of Job are relevant, do you also refuse to wear clothing made of multiple fabrics (Deuteronomy 22:9–11, Leviticus 19:19)? Here, I'll let West Wing cite the sources for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc

lurk2 2y ago

While I don’t want to look like I’m going to bat for the Hobby Lobby people, this seems like a very convenient way for you to argue that everyone ought to agree with your policy positions, even when those policy positions are not explicitly biblical. How do you reconcile the welfare state with Thessalonians 3:10, or Matthew 7:6? How do you address the restoration of Job? Was God mistaken in awarding Job with material wealth?

Arainach 2y ago
Other humans are not "dogs" or "pigs". Jesus was unambiguous. "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30–31) Or, even more explicit, Matthew 25:31-46. "Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’" Jesus is explicitly advocating welfare - providing food, drink, clothes, healthcare, and more to anyone in need. Jesus was also unambiguous on wealth. Christians, who follow the teachings of Christ, should give greater merit to his words than to anything in the old testament which came before. For more, consider 1 John 4:20 "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."
- lurk2 2y ago
  > Other humans are not "dogs" or "pigs". So why is the verse there? > Jesus is explicitly advocating welfare - providing food, drink, clothes, healthcare, and more to anyone in need. There is nothing in this verse which says that property is to be expropriated for the purposes of assuring others a particular standard of living, and I don’t think you’ll be able to find one. > Jesus was also unambiguous on wealth. Christians, who follow the teachings of Christ, should give greater merit to his words than to anything in the old testament which came before. You’ve ignored my question. If Jesus is God, and God rewarded Job with material wealth in this world, how can Jesus be said to offer an unambiguous criticism of wealth?