5 ms·

> Farmers as a class are not stupid Yet in my lifetime I have seen them consistently go or vote against their own interests (see Brexit which absolutely gutted

> Farmers as a class are not stupid Yet in my lifetime I have seen them consistently go or vote against their own interests (see Brexit which absolutely gutted British farmers which overwhelmingly voted against "evil EU rules").

defrost 2y ago
The difference between UK farmers voting numbers for Brexit and the general UK population voting numbers for Brexit was ~ 1% .. within the margin of error and shows that farmers overall voted much as the general UK population did. Given the smaller absolute number of farmers, their vote carried less significant weight than many other blocs. ~ https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fvxefahzanu1e1.jpeg https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fv... ~ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671... Face it, the UK population as a whole voted against their own interests, there's no justification to single out UK farmers as being somehow different to the UK population and more deserving of blame.
- epolanski 2y ago
  > and shows that farmers overall voted much as the general UK population did. Against their own interest.
  - rfrey 2y ago
    Sure, but your parent's point is that they did so no more or less than the general population. This is in response to the assertion that farmers are especially stupid.
  - phpnode 2y ago
    yes, just like almost every other group that voted for it. It's wrong to single out farmers for this.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  That only matters if Brexit was about as bad for the direct personal interests of farmers as it was for the average Brit. If farmers had it far worse after Brexit than the average Brit, then it means farmers were especially dumb for voting against their own interests.
  - defrost 2y ago
    My comment above was written in response to an earlier version of the comment above it. That original version was phrased as to blame farmers for the plight of Brexit, as if a small group who voted more or less in line with with the nation made any kind of difference. Did farmers have it far worse after Brexit than the average Brit? My understanding is the nation as a whole suffered, with the exception of well off Brits with significant off shore assests.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      Your understanding is incorrect, but understandable if you read the wrong sources. There was so far no measurable negative impact of Brexit. Go look at graphs of trade balances, economic performance, etc. You can't see Brexit in them. The only metric I can think of that was impacted was currency value on the day of the vote, but that dump was driven by predictions of economic problems that never happened so arguably those traders just took a bath due to believing the wrong people. It is anyway not necessarily bad for a country like the UK to have a lower valued currency; economists had for years been arguing it was overvalued and would be better if the currency was cheaper, so this is a bit of a wash. All the comments being made here about people voting against their own interests start by assuming that voter's interests are exclusively trade-related, and that constitutional issues don't matter to people at all. This is clearly wrong but a required assumption for the whole against-their-own-interests claim to work. And then it goes on to conflate predictions with reality, by assuming that because the NGO-academic class predicted economic doom it must have actually happened when it didn't. Both of these are fatal flaws to the argument. The only way I can see to argue there was negative impact is via very indirect paths, e.g. the voters wanted less immigration and Johnson set the thresholds in the new immigration system so low that immigration increased. But that's more accurately blamed on the Conservatives and the general ideological hangover of EU membership on the party itself, not leaving. Voters can at least do something about it now, and the rise of Reform (Britain's new top-polling party) is evidence of that effect in action.
afpx 2y ago
Maybe their actual interests are different from what others think they should be.
- breadwinner 2y ago
  Sure, if their actual interests are to suffer devastating economic consequences.

defrost 2y ago

The difference between UK farmers voting numbers for Brexit and the general UK population voting numbers for Brexit was ~ 1% .. within the margin of error and shows that farmers overall voted much as the general UK population did. Given the smaller absolute number of farmers, their vote carried less significant weight than many other blocs. ~ https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fvxefahzanu1e1.jpeg https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fv... ~ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671... Face it, the UK population as a whole voted against their own interests, there's no justification to single out UK farmers as being somehow different to the UK population and more deserving of blame.

epolanski 2y ago
> and shows that farmers overall voted much as the general UK population did. Against their own interest.
- rfrey 2y ago
  Sure, but your parent's point is that they did so no more or less than the general population. This is in response to the assertion that farmers are especially stupid.
- phpnode 2y ago
  yes, just like almost every other group that voted for it. It's wrong to single out farmers for this.
tsimionescu 2y ago
That only matters if Brexit was about as bad for the direct personal interests of farmers as it was for the average Brit. If farmers had it far worse after Brexit than the average Brit, then it means farmers were especially dumb for voting against their own interests.
- defrost 2y ago
  My comment above was written in response to an earlier version of the comment above it. That original version was phrased as to blame farmers for the plight of Brexit, as if a small group who voted more or less in line with with the nation made any kind of difference. Did farmers have it far worse after Brexit than the average Brit? My understanding is the nation as a whole suffered, with the exception of well off Brits with significant off shore assests.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Your understanding is incorrect, but understandable if you read the wrong sources. There was so far no measurable negative impact of Brexit. Go look at graphs of trade balances, economic performance, etc. You can't see Brexit in them. The only metric I can think of that was impacted was currency value on the day of the vote, but that dump was driven by predictions of economic problems that never happened so arguably those traders just took a bath due to believing the wrong people. It is anyway not necessarily bad for a country like the UK to have a lower valued currency; economists had for years been arguing it was overvalued and would be better if the currency was cheaper, so this is a bit of a wash. All the comments being made here about people voting against their own interests start by assuming that voter's interests are exclusively trade-related, and that constitutional issues don't matter to people at all. This is clearly wrong but a required assumption for the whole against-their-own-interests claim to work. And then it goes on to conflate predictions with reality, by assuming that because the NGO-academic class predicted economic doom it must have actually happened when it didn't. Both of these are fatal flaws to the argument. The only way I can see to argue there was negative impact is via very indirect paths, e.g. the voters wanted less immigration and Johnson set the thresholds in the new immigration system so low that immigration increased. But that's more accurately blamed on the Conservatives and the general ideological hangover of EU membership on the party itself, not leaving. Voters can at least do something about it now, and the rise of Reform (Britain's new top-polling party) is evidence of that effect in action.

afpx 2y ago

Maybe their actual interests are different from what others think they should be.

breadwinner 2y ago
Sure, if their actual interests are to suffer devastating economic consequences.