5 ms·

This reminds me of Soviet ersatz products. Like the Soviet Union, the European Union operates at a scale where it can feasibly create a nearly full suite of go

This reminds me of Soviet ersatz products. Like the Soviet Union, the European Union operates at a scale where it can feasibly create a nearly full suite of goods/services in parallel to the market alternative.

jensgk 2y ago
There are many other countries in the world. The world will go on, even with reduced trade with the US. We will just increase trade with Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. and even China.
hnbad 2y ago
> the market alternative It's interesting that you imply the European Union is communist or state capitalist in a similar way to the Soviet Union or that European Alternatives are not part of the market, analogous to state-produced consumer goods in the Soviet Union. It's especially interesting (which is a nice way of saying preposterous) considering the primary function of the European Union has always been a European single market (the EEA includes the EU and EFTA) to ease trade between countries in Europe, with most other concerns logically following downstream from that (e.g. moving towards a United States of Europe is a logical consequence of the need for a state to back the Euro which was a logical consequence of the desire to avoid currency exchange when trading goods within the EEA). Considering the only thing the Soviet Union and the EU have in common is part of their names in English and there's literally no similarity between Soviet consumer products and European Alternatives other than that they're foreign to the US, I struggle to understand what the point of your comment is supposed to be as good faith demands I assume the nonsensical implication is unintentional.
- ETH_start 2y ago
  The EU is of course much more market-based than the Soviet Union, but the analogy is not totally without merit. Legislation like General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), the Digital Markets Act (DMA), the Digital Services Act (DSA), and the Forestry Regulation, as well as heavy tax burdens and expansive restrictions on contracting freedom in the labor sector, have resulted in a situation where no EU company founded from scratch in the last 50 years has a market capitalization exceeding €100 billion, while the US has six such companies valued over €1 trillion. Also, the EU has only 14 publicly traded companies, founded from scratch within the last 50 years, worth at least $10 billion, with a combined market cap of $430 billion. In contrast, the US has 241 such companies (data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e3MnYQ044U1gzi_8bDMoxZp6JCnyaTOusfRwrLOjF3E/edit?gid=744375163#gid=744375163 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e3MnYQ044U1gzi_8bDMo...), and they're collectively worth nearly $30 trillion — almost 70 times the EU total. source: https://geekway.substack.com/p/a-visualization-of-europes-non-bubbly https://geekway.substack.com/p/a-visualization-of-europes-no...
  - sofixa 2y ago
    How is any of that even remotely relevant to a comparison with the Soviet Union? EU companies aren't as overvalued/massive as US ones... and what does that have to do with the USSR?
    - ETH_start 2y ago
      It's not just about market valuations. That's just a proxy of overall productivity, where the US now has a 50% advantage over the EU.
      - sofixa 2y ago
        First, the difference is much smaller: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/economic-bulletin/focus/2024/html/ecb.ebbox202406_01~9c8418b554.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/economic-bulletin/focus/2024... And most "productivity" stats use GDP as a proxy for the productiveness of output, which is of course biased with the aforementioned overvaluation - the fact that in the US a burger costs $25 with tax and tips included, but 15 euros in France doesn't mean that a US server and cook are more productive. And in any case, that is relevant in an EU to Soviet Union comparison how exactly?
        ETH_start 2y ago
        The Soviet Union analogy is not a direct comparison. My point was narrower: excessive centralized control, even in a market system, can stifle economic dynamism, much like the Soviet model did in an extreme way. The EU’s heavy regulations (GDPR, DMA, labor laws) aren’t command economics, but they lean toward a similar logic of prioritizing control over freedom, with measurable results. US stocks may be inflated but the gap — 241 US companies worth $30 trillion vs. 14 EU ones at $430 billion — reflects more than hype. It shows the US consistently produces globally dominant firms, a sign of higher productivity and innovation. The EU’s regulatory burden likely plays a role in why its startups rarely scale that big. For productivity, I cited the US economy being 50% larger (nominal GDP: ~$28T vs. ~$18T for the EU). Your ECB source doesn't contradict my point. It used a baseline of 2019 for both regions, to measure productivity growth, but the regions started at different baselines in 2019. Anyway, getting back to my point: the US does a better job of creating new industries in large part because it avoids the EU’s regulatory morass and therefore has a more market-based economy.
fedeb95 2y ago
the difference being that the EU is in the market. The US is easing its debt by boosting profits, but this will only work temporarily. Otherwise, the US will gradually slip out of the market. Of course no one has a crystal ball, or if someone has one it doesn't really predict the future... we'll see!
- bad_user 2y ago
  Mercantilism doesn't work, there's plenty of evidence that the current policies are really bad for the US and the global economy, there's no silver lining to them, not even the temporary "boosting profits", which won't happen. If the future can't be predicted that's because one can't predict when Trump and his imbeciles will be stripped of power.
  - fedeb95 2y ago
    I was definitely too hopeful with my "will". My personal prediction aligns with your own, but again I'm not that sure of my predictions
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > The US is easing its debt by boosting profits, but this will only work temporarily. I mean, it's hard to see how it would work at all! Their tariff take is simply not going to be sufficient to move the needle very much, and it's not implausible that the revenue loss on income and corporate tax due to lost economic growth will be larger.
femtozer 2y ago
Many of these tools could be seen as better than the American alternatives in certain respects (e.g., being more privacy-focused). If any country could be boldly compared to the Soviet Union in terms of protectionism, it’s more likely the United States these days.

jensgk 2y ago

There are many other countries in the world. The world will go on, even with reduced trade with the US. We will just increase trade with Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. and even China.

hnbad 2y ago

> the market alternative It's interesting that you imply the European Union is communist or state capitalist in a similar way to the Soviet Union or that European Alternatives are not part of the market, analogous to state-produced consumer goods in the Soviet Union. It's especially interesting (which is a nice way of saying preposterous) considering the primary function of the European Union has always been a European single market (the EEA includes the EU and EFTA) to ease trade between countries in Europe, with most other concerns logically following downstream from that (e.g. moving towards a United States of Europe is a logical consequence of the need for a state to back the Euro which was a logical consequence of the desire to avoid currency exchange when trading goods within the EEA). Considering the only thing the Soviet Union and the EU have in common is part of their names in English and there's literally no similarity between Soviet consumer products and European Alternatives other than that they're foreign to the US, I struggle to understand what the point of your comment is supposed to be as good faith demands I assume the nonsensical implication is unintentional.

ETH_start 2y ago
The EU is of course much more market-based than the Soviet Union, but the analogy is not totally without merit. Legislation like General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), the Digital Markets Act (DMA), the Digital Services Act (DSA), and the Forestry Regulation, as well as heavy tax burdens and expansive restrictions on contracting freedom in the labor sector, have resulted in a situation where no EU company founded from scratch in the last 50 years has a market capitalization exceeding €100 billion, while the US has six such companies valued over €1 trillion. Also, the EU has only 14 publicly traded companies, founded from scratch within the last 50 years, worth at least $10 billion, with a combined market cap of $430 billion. In contrast, the US has 241 such companies (data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e3MnYQ044U1gzi_8bDMoxZp6JCnyaTOusfRwrLOjF3E/edit?gid=744375163#gid=744375163 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e3MnYQ044U1gzi_8bDMo...), and they're collectively worth nearly $30 trillion — almost 70 times the EU total. source: https://geekway.substack.com/p/a-visualization-of-europes-non-bubbly https://geekway.substack.com/p/a-visualization-of-europes-no...
- sofixa 2y ago
  How is any of that even remotely relevant to a comparison with the Soviet Union? EU companies aren't as overvalued/massive as US ones... and what does that have to do with the USSR?
  - ETH_start 2y ago
    It's not just about market valuations. That's just a proxy of overall productivity, where the US now has a 50% advantage over the EU.
    - sofixa 2y ago
      First, the difference is much smaller: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/economic-bulletin/focus/2024/html/ecb.ebbox202406_01~9c8418b554.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/economic-bulletin/focus/2024... And most "productivity" stats use GDP as a proxy for the productiveness of output, which is of course biased with the aforementioned overvaluation - the fact that in the US a burger costs $25 with tax and tips included, but 15 euros in France doesn't mean that a US server and cook are more productive. And in any case, that is relevant in an EU to Soviet Union comparison how exactly?
      - ETH_start 2y ago
        The Soviet Union analogy is not a direct comparison. My point was narrower: excessive centralized control, even in a market system, can stifle economic dynamism, much like the Soviet model did in an extreme way. The EU’s heavy regulations (GDPR, DMA, labor laws) aren’t command economics, but they lean toward a similar logic of prioritizing control over freedom, with measurable results. US stocks may be inflated but the gap — 241 US companies worth $30 trillion vs. 14 EU ones at $430 billion — reflects more than hype. It shows the US consistently produces globally dominant firms, a sign of higher productivity and innovation. The EU’s regulatory burden likely plays a role in why its startups rarely scale that big. For productivity, I cited the US economy being 50% larger (nominal GDP: ~$28T vs. ~$18T for the EU). Your ECB source doesn't contradict my point. It used a baseline of 2019 for both regions, to measure productivity growth, but the regions started at different baselines in 2019. Anyway, getting back to my point: the US does a better job of creating new industries in large part because it avoids the EU’s regulatory morass and therefore has a more market-based economy.

fedeb95 2y ago

the difference being that the EU is in the market. The US is easing its debt by boosting profits, but this will only work temporarily. Otherwise, the US will gradually slip out of the market. Of course no one has a crystal ball, or if someone has one it doesn't really predict the future... we'll see!

bad_user 2y ago
Mercantilism doesn't work, there's plenty of evidence that the current policies are really bad for the US and the global economy, there's no silver lining to them, not even the temporary "boosting profits", which won't happen. If the future can't be predicted that's because one can't predict when Trump and his imbeciles will be stripped of power.
- fedeb95 2y ago
  I was definitely too hopeful with my "will". My personal prediction aligns with your own, but again I'm not that sure of my predictions
rsynnott 2y ago
> The US is easing its debt by boosting profits, but this will only work temporarily. I mean, it's hard to see how it would work at all! Their tariff take is simply not going to be sufficient to move the needle very much, and it's not implausible that the revenue loss on income and corporate tax due to lost economic growth will be larger.

femtozer 2y ago

Many of these tools could be seen as better than the American alternatives in certain respects (e.g., being more privacy-focused). If any country could be boldly compared to the Soviet Union in terms of protectionism, it’s more likely the United States these days.