4 ms·

this confuses me a lot it seems that democratic regimes don't need any KPIs or any other performance review system, and people all agree with this how the 'fe

by suraci 2y ago

this confuses me a lot it seems that democratic regimes don't need any KPIs or any other performance review system, and people all agree with this how the 'feedback loop' works?

Qem 2y ago
> how the 'feedback loop' works? If the leader does too much of a poor job it tends to be voted out. Democracy doesn't work by ensuring great people get power. It just avoids perpetuating leadership that gets too misaligned with a large share of the population.
- suraci 2y ago
  so president biden were voted out due to his poor job while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US have to say I completely agree with this... but it still confuses me for instance, how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting
  - Qem 2y ago
    > while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US Judgement is passed by the end of the term. So that's a open question for now. > how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting They were appointed by someone that was elected. So their fuck-ups count against whoever appointed them. But this is not to say democracy as implemented is always perfect. For it to work properly I think a diverse pool of viable would-be leaders must be present, to maximize the odds of at least one well aligned being present for people to choose. Indirect voting and the bipartisan system screw this, creating moral hazards and poor fit candidates that just take turns between them. It's like we know evolution works, but if everybody starts marrying their cousin, the gene pool will lose the raw diversity necessary for evolution to work. Democracy must be fixed, not terminated.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      Democracy, even Athenian democracy, is not a feasible large-scale system and there’s a reason we have never been a democracy. Not even the inventors of democracy were democratic in the modern sense. There were heavy restrictions on who could vote and how, namely: only males, you had to be a proper citizen of Athens by birth, you had to publicly serve military, and you had to actively participate in the politics in order for your vote to count. Mob rule is what modern “democracy” is, and that’s dangerous.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    Biden wasn't voted out; he was old as shit and opted not to run Trump got just over 1/3 of eligible US votes. the Republicans could have run the dead corpse of Nixon and probably gotten at least 1/4 of eligible votes just because he was running on a GOP ticket. almost 1/3 of the US eligible voters didn't vote at all. the Elector College means that red states have a disproportional sway in elections.
    - palmotea 2y ago
      > Trump got just over 1/3 of eligible US votes. Sorry, that's kind of bullshit. Stating things that way is just spin to mischaracterize the actual result. > almost 1/3 of the US eligible voters didn't vote at all. Things are weird now. The indications I've been seeing is the less engaged the voter, the more they tended to support Trump. So if those people voted, Trump would have probably have had a bigger win. In prior years, those voters would have tended to support Democrats, but not anymore. The Democrats got rejected badly. They lost to a dangerous buffoon. Instead of sticking their heads in the sand, they need to own that loss and internalize what that means about them.
      - mcphage 2y ago
        > Instead of sticking their heads in the sand, they need to own that loss and internalize what that means about them. Is that actually true? I've been around ~45 years, and the Republicans have been in and out of power repeatedly during that span. But I don't think they've ever owned a loss, and I don't think they've ever internalizing what it means about them. And it hasn't stopped them from coming back into power, once the mess from their last misadventure has been cleaned up.
        palmotea 2y ago
        > And it hasn't stopped them from coming back into power, once the mess from their last misadventure has been cleaned up. I'm sure the Democrats at some point will come back into power in a 50%+1 squeaker, but that will be bad for the country and another step in its decline. If they want to be the people to actually answer this crisis, instead of ratifying it, they damn well better own thier loss and internalize what that means about them. They lost to Trump, twice, FFS. The only Democrat who could beat him was a fossil from another time (and he only won by a hair). The Democrats suck. They need reform into something else for the sake of the God-damned country.
  - lolive 2y ago
    Isn’t the feedback loop supposed to be Elon/Robert trying to convince the deputees and senators of the validity of the law they propose? And the deputees and senators being accountable to their people for their decisions in Washington ?
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  It seems very clear to me that the feedback loop is utterly broken in all democracies. Two big reasons: 1: It's incredibly difficult to judge the effects of an elected leader's actions. Even assuming an educated/informed/engaged populace, there's nearly always an extremely long delay between an elected leader's actions and the results of those actions. 2: Even when the results of the actions are very tangible, it's still extremely difficult to assign credit or blame for the outcome. A prime example would be the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare). Americans can tangibly experience the outcome of the ACA and form their own opinions. However, the final product is objectively quite different from what Obama and the Democrats initially wanted. So if you think the ACA turned out pretty well (or poorly), to whom do you ascribe the credit (or blame)? To the Democrats for pushing the idea, or Republicans and the healthcare industry for scaling back its initial ambitions? To make an informed decision here you need to know "how the sausage was made" and you're also comparing the actual outcome versus a number of hypothetical roads not taken. It just avoids perpetuating leadership that gets too misaligned with a large share of the population. I think, at best, in America we've basically just achieved a kind of schizophrenic perpetual see-saw between parties that has almost nothing to do with how effectively either one governs. Which is I guess slightly better than having one party perpetually in power forever, but is not great. It precludes any kind of long-term thinking, or stable relationships with other nations.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Well, when a party has lost an election, what's supposed to happen is they spend the next several years figuring out what the people actually want. (Or, more cynically, at least what the people want to hear.) That's where the feedback gets listened to - when they're out of power.
  - mcphage 2y ago
    > It precludes any kind of long-term thinking, or stable relationships with other nations. Well, we had stable relationships with other nations, until a few months ago. So it's at least possible.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago

by suraci 2y ago

this confuses me a lot it seems that democratic regimes don't need any KPIs or any other performance review system, and people all agree with this how the 'feedback loop' works?

Qem 2y ago

> how the 'feedback loop' works? If the leader does too much of a poor job it tends to be voted out. Democracy doesn't work by ensuring great people get power. It just avoids perpetuating leadership that gets too misaligned with a large share of the population.

suraci 2y ago
so president biden were voted out due to his poor job while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US have to say I completely agree with this... but it still confuses me for instance, how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting
- Qem 2y ago
  > while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US Judgement is passed by the end of the term. So that's a open question for now. > how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting They were appointed by someone that was elected. So their fuck-ups count against whoever appointed them. But this is not to say democracy as implemented is always perfect. For it to work properly I think a diverse pool of viable would-be leaders must be present, to maximize the odds of at least one well aligned being present for people to choose. Indirect voting and the bipartisan system screw this, creating moral hazards and poor fit candidates that just take turns between them. It's like we know evolution works, but if everybody starts marrying their cousin, the gene pool will lose the raw diversity necessary for evolution to work. Democracy must be fixed, not terminated.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    Democracy, even Athenian democracy, is not a feasible large-scale system and there’s a reason we have never been a democracy. Not even the inventors of democracy were democratic in the modern sense. There were heavy restrictions on who could vote and how, namely: only males, you had to be a proper citizen of Athens by birth, you had to publicly serve military, and you had to actively participate in the politics in order for your vote to count. Mob rule is what modern “democracy” is, and that’s dangerous.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  Biden wasn't voted out; he was old as shit and opted not to run Trump got just over 1/3 of eligible US votes. the Republicans could have run the dead corpse of Nixon and probably gotten at least 1/4 of eligible votes just because he was running on a GOP ticket. almost 1/3 of the US eligible voters didn't vote at all. the Elector College means that red states have a disproportional sway in elections.
  - palmotea 2y ago
    > Trump got just over 1/3 of eligible US votes. Sorry, that's kind of bullshit. Stating things that way is just spin to mischaracterize the actual result. > almost 1/3 of the US eligible voters didn't vote at all. Things are weird now. The indications I've been seeing is the less engaged the voter, the more they tended to support Trump. So if those people voted, Trump would have probably have had a bigger win. In prior years, those voters would have tended to support Democrats, but not anymore. The Democrats got rejected badly. They lost to a dangerous buffoon. Instead of sticking their heads in the sand, they need to own that loss and internalize what that means about them.
    - mcphage 2y ago
      > Instead of sticking their heads in the sand, they need to own that loss and internalize what that means about them. Is that actually true? I've been around ~45 years, and the Republicans have been in and out of power repeatedly during that span. But I don't think they've ever owned a loss, and I don't think they've ever internalizing what it means about them. And it hasn't stopped them from coming back into power, once the mess from their last misadventure has been cleaned up.
      - palmotea 2y ago
        > And it hasn't stopped them from coming back into power, once the mess from their last misadventure has been cleaned up. I'm sure the Democrats at some point will come back into power in a 50%+1 squeaker, but that will be bad for the country and another step in its decline. If they want to be the people to actually answer this crisis, instead of ratifying it, they damn well better own thier loss and internalize what that means about them. They lost to Trump, twice, FFS. The only Democrat who could beat him was a fossil from another time (and he only won by a hair). The Democrats suck. They need reform into something else for the sake of the God-damned country.
- lolive 2y ago
  Isn’t the feedback loop supposed to be Elon/Robert trying to convince the deputees and senators of the validity of the law they propose? And the deputees and senators being accountable to their people for their decisions in Washington ?
JohnBooty 2y ago
It seems very clear to me that the feedback loop is utterly broken in all democracies. Two big reasons: 1: It's incredibly difficult to judge the effects of an elected leader's actions. Even assuming an educated/informed/engaged populace, there's nearly always an extremely long delay between an elected leader's actions and the results of those actions. 2: Even when the results of the actions are very tangible, it's still extremely difficult to assign credit or blame for the outcome. A prime example would be the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare). Americans can tangibly experience the outcome of the ACA and form their own opinions. However, the final product is objectively quite different from what Obama and the Democrats initially wanted. So if you think the ACA turned out pretty well (or poorly), to whom do you ascribe the credit (or blame)? To the Democrats for pushing the idea, or Republicans and the healthcare industry for scaling back its initial ambitions? To make an informed decision here you need to know "how the sausage was made" and you're also comparing the actual outcome versus a number of hypothetical roads not taken. It just avoids perpetuating leadership that gets too misaligned with a large share of the population. I think, at best, in America we've basically just achieved a kind of schizophrenic perpetual see-saw between parties that has almost nothing to do with how effectively either one governs. Which is I guess slightly better than having one party perpetually in power forever, but is not great. It precludes any kind of long-term thinking, or stable relationships with other nations.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Well, when a party has lost an election, what's supposed to happen is they spend the next several years figuring out what the people actually want. (Or, more cynically, at least what the people want to hear.) That's where the feedback gets listened to - when they're out of power.
- mcphage 2y ago
  > It precludes any kind of long-term thinking, or stable relationships with other nations. Well, we had stable relationships with other nations, until a few months ago. So it's at least possible.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago