4 ms·

In which manner, in this theories, do you measure the performance of the « dictator »/CEO/president? Is it based on objective KPIs decided ahead of time? or are

by lolive 2y ago

In which manner, in this theories, do you measure the performance of the « dictator »/CEO/president? Is it based on objective KPIs decided ahead of time? or are the KPIs supposed to be evaluated by the consumers/electors/ people? And what consequences can those KPIs have, if considered to be poor? Can we fire the dictator? If no KPIs allow to maintain the system stable, as a feedback loop, then welcome to USSR where everything is fake, and the « government » governs itself until complete failure.

logicchains 2y ago
>In which manner, in this theories, do you measure the performance of the « dictator »/CEO/president? Is it based on objective KPIs decided ahead of time? or are the KPIs supposed to be evaluated by the consumers/electors/ people? The Magna Carta had a solution for this: > Under what historians later labelled "clause 61", or the "security clause", a council of 25 barons would be created to monitor and ensure John's future adherence to the charter.[46] If John did not conform to the charter within 40 days of being notified of a transgression by the council, the 25 barons were empowered by clause 61 to seize John's castles and lands until, in their judgement, amends had been made.[47] Men were to be compelled to swear an oath to assist the council in controlling the King, but once redress had been made for any breaches, the King would continue to rule as before. Such an arrangement can only work when at least some part of the populace is well armed enough to overthrow the government if things get too bad.
- Nokinside 2y ago
  > least some part of the populace is well armed enough to overthrow t What a naive fantasy. Organization of people is much more important than guns. You don't even need guns when you organize. You can stop the state just by collective action. See color revolutions. When it is guns, you need RGP's, detonators and TNT (and drones), a good underground insurgent logistic chains. You also need commit to life in poverty and eventual death. United States, Hungary, Turkey, Russia, Serbia have plenty of independent weapons, yet there is no fear of effective armed resistance. Everybody is a rebel in the Internet. When things go tough it's "I have to go to work and eat. My family needs me."
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Magna Carta predates not just guns but even just gunpowder being known in Europe. The barons it talks about would have been somewhat analogous to US state governors, though even then it's a very loose analogy as the logistics of England in the 1200s was so different to the modern world. There's lots of things it could be analogised to, including a board of directors empowered to remove an unwanted CEO; or how the English civil war was a fight between Charles I and his parliament (some of the discourse at the time explicitly mentioned Magna Carta*). Which is to say that while one does indeed need to be able to respond "this one" when asked "you and what army?", that requirement is not itself a show-stopper, people can (and have) been able to give the correct answer. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petition_of_Right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petition_of_Right
  - LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
    > See color revolutions. Bad example, since they are mostly just clandestine interventions of another state to destabilize the one they are happening in.
suraci 2y ago
this confuses me a lot it seems that democratic regimes don't need any KPIs or any other performance review system, and people all agree with this how the 'feedback loop' works?
- Qem 2y ago
  > how the 'feedback loop' works? If the leader does too much of a poor job it tends to be voted out. Democracy doesn't work by ensuring great people get power. It just avoids perpetuating leadership that gets too misaligned with a large share of the population.
  - suraci 2y ago
    so president biden were voted out due to his poor job while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US have to say I completely agree with this... but it still confuses me for instance, how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting
    - Qem 2y ago
      > while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US Judgement is passed by the end of the term. So that's a open question for now. > how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting They were appointed by someone that was elected. So their fuck-ups count against whoever appointed them. But this is not to say democracy as implemented is always perfect. For it to work properly I think a diverse pool of viable would-be leaders must be present, to maximize the odds of at least one well aligned being present for people to choose. Indirect voting and the bipartisan system screw this, creating moral hazards and poor fit candidates that just take turns between them. It's like we know evolution works, but if everybody starts marrying their cousin, the gene pool will lose the raw diversity necessary for evolution to work. Democracy must be fixed, not terminated.
      - 2y ago

by lolive 2y ago

logicchains 2y ago

>In which manner, in this theories, do you measure the performance of the « dictator »/CEO/president? Is it based on objective KPIs decided ahead of time? or are the KPIs supposed to be evaluated by the consumers/electors/ people? The Magna Carta had a solution for this: > Under what historians later labelled "clause 61", or the "security clause", a council of 25 barons would be created to monitor and ensure John's future adherence to the charter.[46] If John did not conform to the charter within 40 days of being notified of a transgression by the council, the 25 barons were empowered by clause 61 to seize John's castles and lands until, in their judgement, amends had been made.[47] Men were to be compelled to swear an oath to assist the council in controlling the King, but once redress had been made for any breaches, the King would continue to rule as before. Such an arrangement can only work when at least some part of the populace is well armed enough to overthrow the government if things get too bad.

Nokinside 2y ago
> least some part of the populace is well armed enough to overthrow t What a naive fantasy. Organization of people is much more important than guns. You don't even need guns when you organize. You can stop the state just by collective action. See color revolutions. When it is guns, you need RGP's, detonators and TNT (and drones), a good underground insurgent logistic chains. You also need commit to life in poverty and eventual death. United States, Hungary, Turkey, Russia, Serbia have plenty of independent weapons, yet there is no fear of effective armed resistance. Everybody is a rebel in the Internet. When things go tough it's "I have to go to work and eat. My family needs me."
- ben_w 2y ago
  Magna Carta predates not just guns but even just gunpowder being known in Europe. The barons it talks about would have been somewhat analogous to US state governors, though even then it's a very loose analogy as the logistics of England in the 1200s was so different to the modern world. There's lots of things it could be analogised to, including a board of directors empowered to remove an unwanted CEO; or how the English civil war was a fight between Charles I and his parliament (some of the discourse at the time explicitly mentioned Magna Carta*). Which is to say that while one does indeed need to be able to respond "this one" when asked "you and what army?", that requirement is not itself a show-stopper, people can (and have) been able to give the correct answer. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petition_of_Right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petition_of_Right
- LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
  > See color revolutions. Bad example, since they are mostly just clandestine interventions of another state to destabilize the one they are happening in.

suraci 2y ago

this confuses me a lot it seems that democratic regimes don't need any KPIs or any other performance review system, and people all agree with this how the 'feedback loop' works?

Qem 2y ago
> how the 'feedback loop' works? If the leader does too much of a poor job it tends to be voted out. Democracy doesn't work by ensuring great people get power. It just avoids perpetuating leadership that gets too misaligned with a large share of the population.
- suraci 2y ago
  so president biden were voted out due to his poor job while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US have to say I completely agree with this... but it still confuses me for instance, how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting
  - Qem 2y ago
    > while president trump is aligned with a large share of the population of the US Judgement is passed by the end of the term. So that's a open question for now. > how the 'feedback loop' works for elon musk and robert kennedy jr, as they are not in the feedback loop of voting They were appointed by someone that was elected. So their fuck-ups count against whoever appointed them. But this is not to say democracy as implemented is always perfect. For it to work properly I think a diverse pool of viable would-be leaders must be present, to maximize the odds of at least one well aligned being present for people to choose. Indirect voting and the bipartisan system screw this, creating moral hazards and poor fit candidates that just take turns between them. It's like we know evolution works, but if everybody starts marrying their cousin, the gene pool will lose the raw diversity necessary for evolution to work. Democracy must be fixed, not terminated.
    - 2y ago