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There's plenty of other experts saying that peaceful cooperation with Russia is possible. Wouldn't that be preferable to war to the last man, or a new decades l

There's plenty of other experts saying that peaceful cooperation with Russia is possible. Wouldn't that be preferable to war to the last man, or a new decades long cold war? I don't understand why don't we talk more about achieving that, instead of blindly preparing for WWIII. NATO shouldn't even exist since the URSS collapsed.

arrrg 2y ago
Sure. Might be. But you are here asking for Europe to preemptively roll over and give in to Russian wars of aggression. From a game theory point of view how is that supposed to bring peace? That just shows Russia that they can do whatever they want and reach their goals. We already had the Minsk agreement Russia violated. Why should Russia stop when we give in to their demands? What‘s the logic there? At some point you have to show strength. And earlier is probably better if you want to prevent WWIII
- ossobuco 2y ago
  > At some point you have to show strength. And earlier is probably better if you want to prevent WWIII Sure, EU combined already spends three times as much as Russia in "showing strength". I'm sure there must be a way to use what we have without tripling the expense. If nothing, because showing that we need 10 times their military expense to keep up with them would only show that we are in fact weaker. Unless the goal of rearmament is only to make a few weapon manufacturers richer, then I'd say we've found the most efficient way to do it.
  - arrrg 2y ago
    I don’t think re-armament is the only or the best solution. It’s just that with the US having left the picture Europe does have to show strength if it has to have any hope of keeping Russia at bay. That‘s not just arms, that’s also credible deterrence. How can Europe achieve that absent the US without spending on arms? I do think that Ukraine is instructive in terms of Russia not being as almighty as they might seem, but in terms of outcome Putin is scary close to achieving practically all of his war aims short of Ukraine ceasing to exist. I learned that Putin is patient. He can take it step by step. He does not value human life. And that’s dangerous. At great cost to the Russian people, sure, but does Putin care? Another five to ten years and he can give something else a go. And suddenly he is in the Baltcis or at the Polish border.
tim333 2y ago
There's a saying if you want peace prepare for war. Especially with Russia who seem to have a habit of cooperation with countries that can defend themselves and invasion of those who can't.
- ossobuco 2y ago
  > There's a saying if you want peace prepare for war. Sure, EU combined already spends three times as much as Russia in "showing strength". I'm sure there must be a way to use what we have without tripling the expense. If nothing, because if we need 10 times their military expense to keep up with them we'd only show that we are in fact weaker.
navane 2y ago
After how many slaps in your face will you raise your hands? Europe tried peace with Russia and Russia invaded country after country over the past decades. Where would you draw the line?
- ossobuco 2y ago
  As far as I know, invading other countries and bombing civilians is an informal requirement for friendship with the EU. We've been friends for decades with the US, Israel, Turkey, and more, after all. I understand Russia is a bit low in terms of amount of civilians killed, but we could make an exception for them if it avoided WWIII.
  - navane 2y ago
    Line where?
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      Exactly where we drew it with the USA and Israel I'd say.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
rat87 2y ago
Sure that would be preferable if Russia was willing to accept that. But they proved those experts wrong in 2022 and have not changed their ways since. Maybe you could argue in the 90s that NATO shouldn't exist but Russias actions proved such arguments wrong

arrrg 2y ago

Sure. Might be. But you are here asking for Europe to preemptively roll over and give in to Russian wars of aggression. From a game theory point of view how is that supposed to bring peace? That just shows Russia that they can do whatever they want and reach their goals. We already had the Minsk agreement Russia violated. Why should Russia stop when we give in to their demands? What‘s the logic there? At some point you have to show strength. And earlier is probably better if you want to prevent WWIII

ossobuco 2y ago
> At some point you have to show strength. And earlier is probably better if you want to prevent WWIII Sure, EU combined already spends three times as much as Russia in "showing strength". I'm sure there must be a way to use what we have without tripling the expense. If nothing, because showing that we need 10 times their military expense to keep up with them would only show that we are in fact weaker. Unless the goal of rearmament is only to make a few weapon manufacturers richer, then I'd say we've found the most efficient way to do it.
- arrrg 2y ago
  I don’t think re-armament is the only or the best solution. It’s just that with the US having left the picture Europe does have to show strength if it has to have any hope of keeping Russia at bay. That‘s not just arms, that’s also credible deterrence. How can Europe achieve that absent the US without spending on arms? I do think that Ukraine is instructive in terms of Russia not being as almighty as they might seem, but in terms of outcome Putin is scary close to achieving practically all of his war aims short of Ukraine ceasing to exist. I learned that Putin is patient. He can take it step by step. He does not value human life. And that’s dangerous. At great cost to the Russian people, sure, but does Putin care? Another five to ten years and he can give something else a go. And suddenly he is in the Baltcis or at the Polish border.

tim333 2y ago

There's a saying if you want peace prepare for war. Especially with Russia who seem to have a habit of cooperation with countries that can defend themselves and invasion of those who can't.

ossobuco 2y ago
> There's a saying if you want peace prepare for war. Sure, EU combined already spends three times as much as Russia in "showing strength". I'm sure there must be a way to use what we have without tripling the expense. If nothing, because if we need 10 times their military expense to keep up with them we'd only show that we are in fact weaker.

navane 2y ago

After how many slaps in your face will you raise your hands? Europe tried peace with Russia and Russia invaded country after country over the past decades. Where would you draw the line?

ossobuco 2y ago
As far as I know, invading other countries and bombing civilians is an informal requirement for friendship with the EU. We've been friends for decades with the US, Israel, Turkey, and more, after all. I understand Russia is a bit low in terms of amount of civilians killed, but we could make an exception for them if it avoided WWIII.
- navane 2y ago
  Line where?
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    Exactly where we drew it with the USA and Israel I'd say.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

rat87 2y ago

Sure that would be preferable if Russia was willing to accept that. But they proved those experts wrong in 2022 and have not changed their ways since. Maybe you could argue in the 90s that NATO shouldn't exist but Russias actions proved such arguments wrong