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96 years ago we there was a massive financial crisis and depression that killed a lot of people and is directly related to the (lack of) national policies of th

96 years ago we there was a massive financial crisis and depression that killed a lot of people and is directly related to the (lack of) national policies of the time. USA recovered remarkably well, but only because there was a big pivot away from crony capitalism and towards "socialism" under FDR. Big investments in The People, unions, education, infrastructure. We are going in the former direction right now.

hollerith 2y ago
Causal relationships can be hard to discern. Some say that FDR's policies extended the downturn to 10 years whereas recovery from previous downturns was much quicker. (Also, it is not clear to me how any of this is relevant to "The wealth gap growing, and the median person being better off aren't mutually exclusive".)
- teucris 2y ago
  Can you provide references? This is the first I’ve ever heard of this.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    For example, Murray Rothbard argued in America’s Great Depression (1963) that both Herbert Hoover and FDR worsened the economic downturn through interventionist policies. He believed FDR’s price and wage controls, massive public spending, and business regulations stifled economic recovery. My point is not that the person I was replying to is definitely wrong about FDR's policies, but rather that the effects of FDR's policies are uncertain enough that the fact that FDR imposed them in the 1930s cannot credibly used to lend strong support to any argument for any economic policy to be imposed today. The post-WWII economic boom for example happened after most of FDR's policies had been repealed.
    - teucris 2y ago
      Thanks for the reference. I generally agree that, from a very high-altitude, it's difficult to know whether New Deal policies shortened the depression given that WWII shook up the US so much. However, there are many things introduced during that time that have had a visceral effect on the average American's quality of life, saved lives, and would be terrible to abandon: the FDIC, the construction of a massive amount of infrastructure, social security, etc.
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  These are probably the same people who say that environmental regulation is not necessary because companies would clean up pollution anyways.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    "If the health benefits of pollution were so bad, insurers would pay plants to install scrubbers."
- whattheheckheck 2y ago
  I don't think your comment adds clarity to the line of questioning and reasoning. I think it's damaging to clear thinking by muddying the waters. I give you an example of returning the favor to you: "Causual relationships can be hard to discern. Some say when people spout a spurious claim without evidence nor citations that falls in line with the entrenched structural power interests it simply shuts down critical thinking and causes people to not advocate for themselves and their own self interests which lets deep systemic issues fester and rot and leading to mass violence." https://a.co/d/9rTmcYe https://a.co/d/9rTmcYe https://a.co/d/5aIpwPC https://a.co/d/5aIpwPC https://a.co/d/0ujVgWg https://a.co/d/0ujVgWg https://a.co/d/0g5HHDh https://a.co/d/0g5HHDh
- pphysch 2y ago
  Of course libertarian ideologues will argue FDR was the Big Bad. They are arguing from ideology, not science. FDR committed the grave sin of making a lot of rich people slightly less rich, in the short term. Deregulation is the answer to everything, including the problems caused directly by lack of regulation and governance. Hilarious.

hollerith 2y ago

Causal relationships can be hard to discern. Some say that FDR's policies extended the downturn to 10 years whereas recovery from previous downturns was much quicker. (Also, it is not clear to me how any of this is relevant to "The wealth gap growing, and the median person being better off aren't mutually exclusive".)

teucris 2y ago
Can you provide references? This is the first I’ve ever heard of this.
- hollerith 2y ago
  For example, Murray Rothbard argued in America’s Great Depression (1963) that both Herbert Hoover and FDR worsened the economic downturn through interventionist policies. He believed FDR’s price and wage controls, massive public spending, and business regulations stifled economic recovery. My point is not that the person I was replying to is definitely wrong about FDR's policies, but rather that the effects of FDR's policies are uncertain enough that the fact that FDR imposed them in the 1930s cannot credibly used to lend strong support to any argument for any economic policy to be imposed today. The post-WWII economic boom for example happened after most of FDR's policies had been repealed.
  - teucris 2y ago
    Thanks for the reference. I generally agree that, from a very high-altitude, it's difficult to know whether New Deal policies shortened the depression given that WWII shook up the US so much. However, there are many things introduced during that time that have had a visceral effect on the average American's quality of life, saved lives, and would be terrible to abandon: the FDIC, the construction of a massive amount of infrastructure, social security, etc.
rqtwteye 2y ago
These are probably the same people who say that environmental regulation is not necessary because companies would clean up pollution anyways.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  "If the health benefits of pollution were so bad, insurers would pay plants to install scrubbers."
whattheheckheck 2y ago
I don't think your comment adds clarity to the line of questioning and reasoning. I think it's damaging to clear thinking by muddying the waters. I give you an example of returning the favor to you: "Causual relationships can be hard to discern. Some say when people spout a spurious claim without evidence nor citations that falls in line with the entrenched structural power interests it simply shuts down critical thinking and causes people to not advocate for themselves and their own self interests which lets deep systemic issues fester and rot and leading to mass violence." https://a.co/d/9rTmcYe https://a.co/d/9rTmcYe https://a.co/d/5aIpwPC https://a.co/d/5aIpwPC https://a.co/d/0ujVgWg https://a.co/d/0ujVgWg https://a.co/d/0g5HHDh https://a.co/d/0g5HHDh
pphysch 2y ago
Of course libertarian ideologues will argue FDR was the Big Bad. They are arguing from ideology, not science. FDR committed the grave sin of making a lot of rich people slightly less rich, in the short term. Deregulation is the answer to everything, including the problems caused directly by lack of regulation and governance. Hilarious.