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They can't fix the brand damage while Musk remains at Tesla. And even after he leaves the "swasticar" epithet is going to stick.

by zfg 2y ago

ben_w 2y ago
After he leaves, anything is possible for the brand. VW was literally founded by the national labour organization of the literal Nazi Party, it was offered to the Ford motor company in 1948 for free (they turned it down). Yet VW was shipping to the US in 1949 (albeit sold a total of 2 that year) and reached a million sales (in total, I think, not US) around a decade after the end of the actual war — all the horrors were still very much in living memory at that point. But I said "brand". The company itself may be screwed, as my understanding is that Tesla Inc has debts of around USD 13.62 billion[0] plus whatever is going on with the various claims I've heard but cannot verify about Musk using Tesla stock as collateral for loans[1]. If the Market cap was realistic, the loans wouldn't be a big deal, but I think the share price (and hence market cap) is off by a factor of around 15-20[2], and that Musk personally has enough of a Steve-Jobs-like Reality Distortion Bubble to hold it at that ratio for a while yet. If I'm right, the current market cap of ~USD 780 billion should be closer to 30-60 billion — and Wikipedia says that he used more than the high end of that to secure a personal loan to buy Twitter[3]. [0] https://companiesmarketcap.com/tesla/total-debt/#:~:text=Total%20debt%20on%20the%20balance,current%20and%20non%2Dcurrent%20debts. https://companiesmarketcap.com/tesla/total-debt/#:~:text=Tot... [1] https://www.binance.com/en/square/post/21772866617914 https://www.binance.com/en/square/post/21772866617914 [2] the P/E ratio only makes sense if you assume growth that was already implausible even if there wasn't excellent competition from China or a brewing trade war or that current White House policy is to cut spending and kick out workers both independently at a scale likely to cause a recession in the USA; if the US does actually go to war with China like some of the (currently) rumours are saying they're thinking about, that's 21.4% of Tesla's market by dollars. [3] "$6.25 billion in bank loans to Musk personally, secured by $62.5 billion of his Tesla stock" - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acquisition_of_Twitter_by_Elon_Musk&oldid=1281294066#Takeover_bid https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acquisition_of_Tw...
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Yeah, as I understand it _all_ that survived of Volkswagen was the brand, and even then the brand was changed (the original company wasn’t called Volkswagen, its product was; it’d be a bit like is Tesla was renamed Cybertruck). Like, the ownership and leadership completely changed. Ford is probably a better example; I gather Ford sales _did_ suffer somewhat. It’s not a _great_ comparison, though; by the time Henry Ford went public with his lunacy, he was no longer the president of the company (his son was). And his brand of antisemitism didn’t really become complete political poison in the US until after the war (when he started on it in the 20s, blatant antisemitism was still somewhat socially acceptable in the US), at which point he was basically dead.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Aye, and history may repeat — even accounting for how bad the Cybertruck vehicle is.
    - Zigurd 2y ago
      Re "and history may repeat" uhhh, I'm not sure anyone outside of the effective accellerationism movement/cult would actually want a replay of the whole journey to the revival of VW.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        I've not seen that much interest in that particular journey from e/acc either. Others groups, yes. Perhaps I've missed things — I have missed things, I should instead say that perhaps I've missed those things — but I while I dislike e/acc for seeing only what existing ills can be prevented rather than accounting for what new ills can be created by a lack of caution, I've not seen what you say in e/acc. Nothing wilful.
sarcasmatwork 2y ago
Why is that? He's not a Nazi, or support that kind of stuff, yet so many believe it? Has left leaning media pushed a false narrative again? Do you know about VW? Why is no one burring those? EV's were pushed by the left, now they are bad? So burn them.. what about the environment?
- zfg 2y ago
  > Why is that? It's the fascist salutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc It's the excuses he makes for Hitler: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/musk-holocaust-public-workers-union-1235296401/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/musk-holoc... It's the interference in foreign politics: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/25/elon-musk-makes-surprise-appearance-at-afd-event-in-eastern-germany https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/25/elon-musk... It's saying Canada is not a real country: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elon-musk-canadian-citizenship-1.7468330 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elon-musk-canadian-citizens... And so on and so on. Take your pick. There's lots to choose from. He's determined to damage the Tesla brand and he is succeeding.
  - sarcasmatwork 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - zfg 2y ago
      > It was a Roman salute. Roman salute, fascist salute, Nazi salute. It's the same thing. These guys certainly think so: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-salute-reaction-right-wing-extremists-1235241866/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-mus... And so does this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1i68puj/have_we_learned_nothing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1i68puj/have_we_l...
      - sarcasmatwork 2y ago
        You just proved my point, thanks. Citing two known sources of lies and lack of credibility. The ADL even backed Elon defense, saying "It seems that @elonmusk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technology/adl-defends-elon-musk-s-gesture-denies-it-was-a-nazi-salute-video/ar-AA1xywqi https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technology/adl-defends-elon-...

They can't fix the brand damage while Musk remains at Tesla. And even after he leaves the "swasticar" epithet is going to stick.

by zfg 2y ago

They can't fix the brand damage while Musk remains at Tesla. And even after he leaves the "swasticar" epithet is going to stick.

ben_w 2y ago

After he leaves, anything is possible for the brand. VW was literally founded by the national labour organization of the literal Nazi Party, it was offered to the Ford motor company in 1948 for free (they turned it down). Yet VW was shipping to the US in 1949 (albeit sold a total of 2 that year) and reached a million sales (in total, I think, not US) around a decade after the end of the actual war — all the horrors were still very much in living memory at that point. But I said "brand". The company itself may be screwed, as my understanding is that Tesla Inc has debts of around USD 13.62 billion[0] plus whatever is going on with the various claims I've heard but cannot verify about Musk using Tesla stock as collateral for loans[1]. If the Market cap was realistic, the loans wouldn't be a big deal, but I think the share price (and hence market cap) is off by a factor of around 15-20[2], and that Musk personally has enough of a Steve-Jobs-like Reality Distortion Bubble to hold it at that ratio for a while yet. If I'm right, the current market cap of ~USD 780 billion should be closer to 30-60 billion — and Wikipedia says that he used more than the high end of that to secure a personal loan to buy Twitter[3]. [0] https://companiesmarketcap.com/tesla/total-debt/#:~:text=Total%20debt%20on%20the%20balance,current%20and%20non%2Dcurrent%20debts. https://companiesmarketcap.com/tesla/total-debt/#:~:text=Tot... [1] https://www.binance.com/en/square/post/21772866617914 https://www.binance.com/en/square/post/21772866617914 [2] the P/E ratio only makes sense if you assume growth that was already implausible even if there wasn't excellent competition from China or a brewing trade war or that current White House policy is to cut spending and kick out workers both independently at a scale likely to cause a recession in the USA; if the US does actually go to war with China like some of the (currently) rumours are saying they're thinking about, that's 21.4% of Tesla's market by dollars. [3] "$6.25 billion in bank loans to Musk personally, secured by $62.5 billion of his Tesla stock" - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acquisition_of_Twitter_by_Elon_Musk&oldid=1281294066#Takeover_bid https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acquisition_of_Tw...

rsynnott 2y ago
Yeah, as I understand it _all_ that survived of Volkswagen was the brand, and even then the brand was changed (the original company wasn’t called Volkswagen, its product was; it’d be a bit like is Tesla was renamed Cybertruck). Like, the ownership and leadership completely changed. Ford is probably a better example; I gather Ford sales _did_ suffer somewhat. It’s not a _great_ comparison, though; by the time Henry Ford went public with his lunacy, he was no longer the president of the company (his son was). And his brand of antisemitism didn’t really become complete political poison in the US until after the war (when he started on it in the 20s, blatant antisemitism was still somewhat socially acceptable in the US), at which point he was basically dead.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Aye, and history may repeat — even accounting for how bad the Cybertruck vehicle is.
  - Zigurd 2y ago
    Re "and history may repeat" uhhh, I'm not sure anyone outside of the effective accellerationism movement/cult would actually want a replay of the whole journey to the revival of VW.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      I've not seen that much interest in that particular journey from e/acc either. Others groups, yes. Perhaps I've missed things — I have missed things, I should instead say that perhaps I've missed those things — but I while I dislike e/acc for seeing only what existing ills can be prevented rather than accounting for what new ills can be created by a lack of caution, I've not seen what you say in e/acc. Nothing wilful.

sarcasmatwork 2y ago

Why is that? He's not a Nazi, or support that kind of stuff, yet so many believe it? Has left leaning media pushed a false narrative again? Do you know about VW? Why is no one burring those? EV's were pushed by the left, now they are bad? So burn them.. what about the environment?

zfg 2y ago
> Why is that? It's the fascist salutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc It's the excuses he makes for Hitler: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/musk-holocaust-public-workers-union-1235296401/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/musk-holoc... It's the interference in foreign politics: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/25/elon-musk-makes-surprise-appearance-at-afd-event-in-eastern-germany https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/25/elon-musk... It's saying Canada is not a real country: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elon-musk-canadian-citizenship-1.7468330 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elon-musk-canadian-citizens... And so on and so on. Take your pick. There's lots to choose from. He's determined to damage the Tesla brand and he is succeeding.
- sarcasmatwork 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - zfg 2y ago
    > It was a Roman salute. Roman salute, fascist salute, Nazi salute. It's the same thing. These guys certainly think so: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-salute-reaction-right-wing-extremists-1235241866/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-mus... And so does this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1i68puj/have_we_learned_nothing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1i68puj/have_we_l...
    - sarcasmatwork 2y ago
      You just proved my point, thanks. Citing two known sources of lies and lack of credibility. The ADL even backed Elon defense, saying "It seems that @elonmusk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technology/adl-defends-elon-musk-s-gesture-denies-it-was-a-nazi-salute-video/ar-AA1xywqi https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technology/adl-defends-elon-...